Cognitive difficulties

[julleri]

I have been suffering from some major cognitive impairments lately. My brain feels really foggy. I have a terrible time with short term memory. Sometimes I can't even remember the details of events earlier in the day. Sometimes I'll read a sentence and have to re-read it from the beginning because it just doesn't flow correctly or make any sense to me, and I will have to slow down and read it word-by-word.

I'm just wondering how common this is from withdrawal/low serotonin? It's truly terrifying, actually. I have always had a sharp mind, but these moments of brain fog and memory loss is scary. I also am suffering from a lot of low vitamin B12 symptoms. I know that this is actually very common with low B12, especially if it has gone on long enough (I don't know how long I have been low and I suspect it has been over the last few years... which scares me).

It's really terrifying. I feel so stupid now. How am I supposed to get on with my life if I can barely think? Sometimes familiar things and places around me feel new, or like I haven't been there before (like a jamais vu), even though I know logically that I have done this or have been there.

Really feels like permanent brain damage. I see a neurologist Tuesday, thankfully. I will tell him all about this (as I suspect it's from low B12, but I wanted to see if maybe - just maybe - this is a serotonin/antidepressant withdrawal thing...)

Thanks everyone. I am hanging on for dear life but it's getting hard. I really hope things get better, including any mental changes I could be suffering from low vitamin B12 or a/d withdrawal. I'm 30 years old and feel like I'm 60 or that I am dying. It's pretty scary stuff.

Jason

[TryingtoGetWell]

Hey, Jason! I'm not here much lately, but just happened to take a quick break from all the things I don't want to do but have to lol, and saw your message to me. Thought I'd check to see if you posted here also before I replied, since I haven't been keeping up on things here too much.

I have to dash out soon but will reply to your message. I have a lot of thoughts. I'll post a bit here hoping it might help others who relate to your post.

First of all, many nutritional deficiencies need time to be corrected. Taking supplements in higher doses than the body can handle at any given time or more often, usually does not make the deficiency better any faster - the body in its wisdom throws off the excess of many things when too much is taken at once or too soon, and there are often side effects in the process.

I've been studying (unofficially) about supplements, herbs, and other such modalities for about a million years, and I'm very disturbed about some recent trends.

In a nutshell, there is an increasing trend for thinking about alternative modalities to be along the (often unwise) thinking our society has about meds. Balance is important (I'll explain more how that might pertain to you when I reply to your message to me), and that's true even when one's body is not sensitized from withdrawal.

When people decide to reinstate meds, they often ask here if they should take more. Often want to take double the dose they had c/t'd off.

I always tell them NO - more is not necessarily better, and will just cause more problems for them - certainly won't make the med take effect any faster.

Not quite the same thing with vitamins like B and D, but very similar. I'll make a few suggestions particular to your situation as soon as I can, but I really don't think a neurologist can do anything for you except to do tests for conditions other than withdrawal or nutritional deficiencies, if you want to rule out other problems for your own peace of mind.

I don't recall if you've seen a neurologist already. I would never tell someone not to see a doctor to rule out other medical problems, but if you've already done that - believe me, nutritional deficiencies and even just the recovery period after going off these meds will cause the symptoms you're having. A neurologist will not be likely to be aware of these things and frankly will probably just offer you more psych meds.

I would hold off on the additional B12 right now and take what your doctor gives you. What you might want to do is try to eat very healthy foods that are high in the entire B complex, because the B vitamins work synergistically, and although you don't need to take equal or therapeutic doses of the other B vits (this is what my integrative medicine MD advised me for my situation, where I need more of another B vit for a non-w/d chronic condition) - but you do need to get enough of them. You might be able to do this with a very tiny amount (fraction of a capsule) or some - not all! - B complex supps, but people are often so sensitive to them after w/d that I think it would be much better if you focused on foods that contain them.

And don't forget that there is still a healing period after finishing one's taper. It's great psychologically to know you're done tapering and off the med - but the body isn't done healing from what the meds did to your body. Most people still do have a healing period, I've noticed - just not as long as those like myself who c/t'd or virtually c/t'd. But your body is still recovering.

And cognitive problems are common in recovery - but they do get better! I was horrified at the effect on my cognitive abilities and at my age (much older than you) was worried - but after a while they got much better, which wouldn't have happened if the cause weren't w/d-related. I do think that once I could eat better (when nausea and digestive problems got better enough to keep down food), it made a big difference.

Please don't think in terms of "feels like permanent brain damage." The brain is confused when recovering from these meds, and we're not designed for the brain to expect the changes that occur in healing from them, so the brain is "confused" and misinterprets the situation. "Feels like" is mentioned so often here, and believe me, I know how strong and frightening those feelings are. They're very real feelings, but they're just feelings - a brain that was never designed to take medications like these and then experience w/d, is trying to make sense of it all but is hard-wired in terms of thinking of being chased by a dinosaur lol. "Severe" feelings does not mean "permanent," and you have to give your body/brain time to recover.

You can't change how it feels, but you can consciously override the brain's alarm by reminding yourself of what you've learned here and keep the feelings in control. It won't change the recovery process, but you can avoid the needless worries so many of us went through before finding this group and learning that there is such a healing process and that people can and do recover.

Today's another hectic day, so as usual I won't even proofread this, but hope it makes sense. And I'll reply with more specifics about B vitamins. (I actually have the brand you mentioned that has no "-itols" like mannitol - I never could take those "-itols" even before w/d and I know other people who've said the same thing who weren't in w/d, and actually was going to mention it to you when I remembered about it. But I think you need to scale back right now on the B-12, I really do. Get the injections from your doctor and give them time to work!)

[nn123]

I had the same thing - it has improved greatly and continues to improve. It took a while before I saw improvement, though. I'm 2.5 years off now. Hope that helps.

[Goosey]

Originally Posted by julleri

I have been suffering from some major cognitive impairments lately. My brain feels really foggy. I have a terrible time with short term memory. Sometimes I can't even remember the details of events earlier in the day. Sometimes I'll read a sentence and have to re-read it from the beginning because it just doesn't flow correctly or make any sense to me, and I will have to slow down and read it word-by-word.

I'm just wondering how common this is from withdrawal/low serotonin? It's truly terrifying, actually. I have always had a sharp mind, but these moments of brain fog and memory loss is scary. I also am suffering from a lot of low vitamin B12 symptoms. I know that this is actually very common with low B12, especially if it has gone on long enough (I don't know how long I have been low and I suspect it has been over the last few years... which scares me).

It's really terrifying. I feel so stupid now. How am I supposed to get on with my life if I can barely think? Sometimes familiar things and places around me feel new, or like I haven't been there before (like a jamais vu), even though I know logically that I have done this or have been there.

Really feels like permanent brain damage. I see a neurologist Tuesday, thankfully. I will tell him all about this (as I suspect it's from low B12, but I wanted to see if maybe - just maybe - this is a serotonin/antidepressant withdrawal thing...)

Thanks everyone. I am hanging on for dear life but it's getting hard. I really hope things get better, including any mental changes I could be suffering from low vitamin B12 or a/d withdrawal. I'm 30 years old and feel like I'm 60 or that I am dying. It's pretty scary stuff.

Jason

I'm on my first reduced dosage and I am getting a milder form of fuzzy thinking. I am also taking B12 supplement of 500 mcg x a day or a total of 1000 mcg daily.

[cipher0413]

Originally Posted by julleri

I have been suffering from some major cognitive impairments lately. My brain feels really foggy. I have a terrible time with short term memory. Sometimes I can't even remember the details of events earlier in the day. Sometimes I'll read a sentence and have to re-read it from the beginning because it just doesn't flow correctly or make any sense to me, and I will have to slow down and read it word-by-word.

I'm just wondering how common this is from withdrawal/low serotonin? It's truly terrifying, actually. I have always had a sharp mind, but these moments of brain fog and memory loss is scary. I also am suffering from a lot of low vitamin B12 symptoms. I know that this is actually very common with low B12, especially if it has gone on long enough (I don't know how long I have been low and I suspect it has been over the last few years... which scares me).

It's really terrifying. I feel so stupid now. How am I supposed to get on with my life if I can barely think? Sometimes familiar things and places around me feel new, or like I haven't been there before (like a jamais vu), even though I know logically that I have done this or have been there.

Really feels like permanent brain damage. I see a neurologist Tuesday, thankfully. I will tell him all about this (as I suspect it's from low B12, but I wanted to see if maybe - just maybe - this is a serotonin/antidepressant withdrawal thing...)

Thanks everyone. I am hanging on for dear life but it's getting hard. I really hope things get better, including any mental changes I could be suffering from low vitamin B12 or a/d withdrawal. I'm 30 years old and feel like I'm 60 or that I am dying. It's pretty scary stuff.

Jason

Hi julleri. I don't know much about low B12, but I think it's most likely that your cognitive impairments are due to withdrawal. The brain fog, the loss of short-term memory, not feeling sharp as before, feeling stupid, I felt all of it too. Especially in the thick of wd. Also could it be more of depersonalization/derealization when you say that things or places don't feel familiar. That is also withdrawal I believe. I went through all those things but with time I now notice that it does get better. I'm 25, and I told my granny who's over 70 years old that "I feel that I have less life left in me than you would do. I feel like it's beyond my time to go. I have no more fight left in me. I feel as if the life energy inside me is all exhausted." So yeah. I can also relate to your feeling of oldness and dying. But I don't feel that way anymore. Hang in there julleri...

[cipher0413]

Originally Posted by TryingtoGetWell

Please don't think in terms of "feels like permanent brain damage." The brain is confused when recovering from these meds, and we're not designed for the brain to expect the changes that occur in healing from them, so the brain is "confused" and misinterprets the situation. "Feels like" is mentioned so often here, and believe me, I know how strong and frightening those feelings are. They're very real feelings, but they're just feelings - a brain that was never designed to take medications like these and then experience w/d, is trying to make sense of it all but is hard-wired in terms of thinking of being chased by a dinosaur lol. "Severe" feelings does not mean "permanent," and you have to give your body/brain time to recover.

You can't change how it feels, but you can consciously override the brain's alarm by reminding yourself of what you've learned here and keep the feelings in control. It won't change the recovery process, but you can avoid the needless worries so many of us went through before finding this group and learning that there is such a healing process and that people can and do recover.

That's so well written. I wish I read this in the thick of my wd, because it would've been so helpful, because it is so true.

[julleri]

I just wanted to take a moment to write a quick thank you to TTGW and others for responding to my question. I won't try to write a lot now, but I did want to express my gratitude for your replies. I relate to what cipher0413 wrote about feeling less vibrant than someone in their later years in life. I'm 30 and feel so old, as if I am falling completely apart physically and mentally. Apart from the vitamin deficiencies, I really haven't changed much in my life, so it has to be from the drugs.

Well anyway, thanks for replying.

[Wld]

Jason, I was just thinking about you the other day...I thought oh he must be feeling better, we havent heard from him in so long. I'm sorry you still have these problems. Ugh!!! Your writing/grammar sounds perfect tho if it's any consolation...you don't sound impaired

[julleri]

Originally Posted by Wld

Jason, I was just thinking about you the other day...I thought oh he must be feeling better, we havent heard from him in so long. I'm sorry you still have these problems. Ugh!!! Your writing/grammar sounds perfect tho if it's any consolation...you don't sound impaired

No, I am afraid I'm not feeling that much better. The B12 issue has taken up a lot of my worry lately, though. It makes me wonder what else I am deficient in, if anything. I keep asking doctors to test me on all vitamins but when I get the test results back it's just normal everyday bloodwork without vitamins. D and B12 if I'm lucky, that's it. But what if I'm deficient in other B vitamins (that's my fear as of now) that they're missing.

I'm very sick and very scared. I guess what else can I do but just do my best, eat as much as I can, take vitamins too to "fill the gaps" and just hope and pray?

[Kay2020]

I have the brain fog and cogitative problems throughout this whole process. What I have been doing is taking classes and trying to have my brain re-engage. Sometimes I have to read my class content 3 times to fully understand.

In the beginning it was frustrating. But I just keep trying and I am halfway through my third course in the series I am taking. I take a lot of notes, I use my calendar more and I now keep lists.

I think the classes are helping my brain.

[nn123]

anyone else have stories to share?

[julleri]

Originally Posted by nn123

anyone else have stories to share?

Stories about what? Brain fog or cognitive impairments?

[nn123]

yes.

[tjwessksu]

Yes to all of the above. Had it in withdrawal from 100-50mg, upped the dose and it's still sticking around. It's gonna be real tough finding a job if I graduate this semester.

[FJ929]

Originally Posted by cipher0413

Hi julleri. I don't know much about low B12, but I think it's most likely that your cognitive impairments are due to withdrawal. The brain fog, the loss of short-term memory, not feeling sharp as before, feeling stupid, I felt all of it too. Especially in the thick of wd. Also could it be more of depersonalization/derealization when you say that things or places don't feel familiar. That is also withdrawal I believe. I went through all those things but with time I now notice that it does get better. I'm 25, and I told my granny who's over 70 years old that "I feel that I have less life left in me than you would do. I feel like it's beyond my time to go. I have no more fight left in me. I feel as if the life energy inside me is all exhausted." So yeah. I can also relate to your feeling of oldness and dying. But I don't feel that way anymore. Hang in there julleri...

Cipher how much better are you in terms of memory and general cognitive issues? How long did it take you to see improvement?

[cipher0413]

Hi FredJ... I never really felt like 'oh, my memory and cognition is finally coming back!'. It's more like I have to think back when was it the last time I strongly felt like I had bad memory and cognition, and that is probably a month or two ago, and as more time passes, I slowly stop repeating to myself that my brain is gone and screwed up. That's really all that I can say, sorry I can't give you much help and can't tell you what you wanna be hearing... But just know that it does get better from where you are right now...

[FJ929]

Originally Posted by cipher0413

Hi FredJ... I never really felt like 'oh, my memory and cognition is finally coming back!'. It's more like I have to think back when was it the last time I strongly felt like I had bad memory and cognition, and that is probably a month or two ago, and as more time passes, I slowly stop repeating to myself that my brain is gone and screwed up. That's really all that I can say, sorry I can't give you much help and can't tell you what you wanna be hearing... But just know that it does get better from where you are right now...

Thanks Cipher that makes me feel better. My fog is sooo bad right now I cannot function at all. No memory whatsoever. Ask what I had for lunch?? No clue. I am confused easily and it seems like it's getting harder to speak. This is terrifying.

[kathleen2]

Fred, you should be reassured that you're able to come here and clearly articulate your thoughts and experiences.

[FJ929]

Originally Posted by kathleen2

Fred, you should be reassured that you're able to come here and clearly articulate your thoughts and experiences.

Thanks Kathleen but taking your time and writing a post is so much easier than talking to someone live. I am still in utter shock that this is happening to me.

[cipher0413]

Hey FredJ, I understand what you're going through! It is utterly shocking yes, to find ourselves in this state... I hope time passes by quickly for you.

[julleri]

Originally Posted by FredJ

Thanks Cipher that makes me feel better. My fog is sooo bad right now I cannot function at all. No memory whatsoever. Ask what I had for lunch?? No clue. I am confused easily and it seems like it's getting harder to speak. This is terrifying.

Fun, isn't it, FredJ? Not knowing what the heck you ate just hours ago. Yet there it is, in your stomach, whatever it was. It's absolutely terrifying!

My memory has been HORRIBLE since stopping. I can't remember names, I can't remember faces. My visual memory is completely shot. I don't remember what something looked like. I'll even find myself looking down at the clothes I am wearing, not remembering that I picked them. It's scary to say the least. I started to think I had dementia, Alzheimer's, some kind of schizophrenia (what that has to do with memory, I don't know). It's still bad, but it's not as bad as it has been. I find days now where the memory is a little bit better, the fog a little bit lifted. Don't get me wrong, I still have the days where I don't remember how I just got here, but here I am! And I'm 30! It was so bad for a while I was on the phone with my brother, crying uncontrollably asking him if we have any Alzheimer's in the family. He laughs and says "no!" Whew!

I know exactly how you feel. When you say it is getting harder to speak, exactly what do you experience? Are you stuttering, stammering? Slurring speech? Is it hard to enunciate? Lately I have been experiencing some of these things, along with a strange hoarseness and need to keep clearing my throat. That coupled with my perceived muscle "atrophy" (whatever...), the muscle twitches (which I do have and can SEE all over my body), I get very very afraid that I have ALS (the speech thing I think is a bulbar onset). I have to calm myself down, though. Realize it's probably withdrawal. This is why I ask what your speaking troubles are like. Maybe they're similar to mine. Do you sometimes feel like it's harder to swallow? I am getting really scared sometimes.

On a sidenote, yet extremely related to your memory problems, have you ever had your B12 levels checked? (I know, I know, I'm sure everyone is probably tired of me yacking up B12 all the time, lol.) If my issues aren't ALS (and pray to GOD they aren't), and if they aren't withdrawal (which is highly unlikely that at least SOME of these things - if not a great majority of them), it stands to reason that these are STILL hangover symptoms of having a deficiency in that particular vitamin. It can cause memory loss, muscle weakness/atrophy, muscle twitches, trouble speaking, trouble swallowing. Just something to think about if you're starting to think this is more than withdrawal. However, I see from your signature you've been through some med changes not too long ago, and some rapid tapering and have only been off for LESS THAN ONE MONTH?! Well, no wonder you're going through these things. I'm only at month five and it's still pure hell on earth most days.

Let me know about those two things in particular: what your speech problems are in your own words, and if you know your B12 level (or even care - if you don't, that's perfectly fine).

Jason

[FJ929]

Originally Posted by julleri

Fun, isn't it, FredJ? Not knowing what the heck you ate just hours ago. Yet there it is, in your stomach, whatever it was. It's absolutely terrifying!

My memory has been HORRIBLE since stopping. I can't remember names, I can't remember faces. My visual memory is completely shot. I don't remember what something looked like. I'll even find myself looking down at the clothes I am wearing, not remembering that I picked them. It's scary to say the least. I started to think I had dementia, Alzheimer's, some kind of schizophrenia (what that has to do with memory, I don't know). It's still bad, but it's not as bad as it has been. I find days now where the memory is a little bit better, the fog a little bit lifted. Don't get me wrong, I still have the days where I don't remember how I just got here, but here I am! And I'm 30! It was so bad for a while I was on the phone with my brother, crying uncontrollably asking him if we have any Alzheimer's in the family. He laughs and says "no!" Whew!

I know exactly how you feel. When you say it is getting harder to speak, exactly what do you experience? Are you stuttering, stammering? Slurring speech? Is it hard to enunciate? Lately I have been experiencing some of these things, along with a strange hoarseness and need to keep clearing my throat. That coupled with my perceived muscle "atrophy" (whatever...), the muscle twitches (which I do have and can SEE all over my body), I get very very afraid that I have ALS (the speech thing I think is a bulbar onset). I have to calm myself down, though. Realize it's probably withdrawal. This is why I ask what your speaking troubles are like. Maybe they're similar to mine. Do you sometimes feel like it's harder to swallow? I am getting really scared sometimes.

On a sidenote, yet extremely related to your memory problems, have you ever had your B12 levels checked? (I know, I know, I'm sure everyone is probably tired of me yacking up B12 all the time, lol.) If my issues aren't ALS (and pray to GOD they aren't), and if they aren't withdrawal (which is highly unlikely that at least SOME of these things - if not a great majority of them), it stands to reason that these are STILL hangover symptoms of having a deficiency in that particular vitamin. It can cause memory loss, muscle weakness/atrophy, muscle twitches, trouble speaking, trouble swallowing. Just something to think about if you're starting to think this is more than withdrawal. However, I see from your signature you've been through some med changes not too long ago, and some rapid tapering and have only been off for LESS THAN ONE MONTH?! Well, no wonder you're going through these things. I'm only at month five and it's still pure hell on earth most days.

Let me know about those two things in particular: what your speech problems are in your own words, and if you know your B12 level (or even care - if you don't, that's perfectly fine).

Jason

I actually have some bloodwork scheduled to check all my B vitamins. It is very encouraging news that your memory and fog is getting better and I am sure it is due to withdrawal although your b12 defficiency I am sure is not helping. Are you taking b12 shots? What was your level at? When i say it's getting harder to speak what I mean is my thoughts are slowed down and it seems like it takes longer to find the right words.

[julleri]

Originally Posted by FredJ

I actually have some bloodwork scheduled to check all my B vitamins. It is very encouraging news that your memory and fog is getting better and I am sure it is due to withdrawal although your b12 defficiency I am sure is not helping. Are you taking b12 shots? What was your level at? When i say it's getting harder to speak what I mean is my thoughts are slowed down and it seems like it takes longer to find the right words.

I am no longer taking shots. They're too ineffective. They fill up your body with a massive amount of B12 and it only lasts a couple of days at most. Daily dosing of B12 sublinguals provides a more even, yet lower dose, of the vitamin into your body.

My level when found deficient was 204. Last check (early May) the level is now 1,844. Somewhere around 1,000 seems to be a good place to strive to be. Word-finding can be an issue for both withdrawal and B12 deficiency.

[Bruno2006]

Originally Posted by FredJ

I actually have some bloodwork scheduled to check all my B vitamins. It is very encouraging news that your memory and fog is getting better and I am sure it is due to withdrawal although your b12 defficiency I am sure is not helping. Are you taking b12 shots? What was your level at? When i say it's getting harder to speak what I mean is my thoughts are slowed down and it seems like it takes longer to find the right words.

Fredj I sent you a PM with something that may help.