Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression

enufodat · 06-13-2012, 09:48 PM

Hello all. I was solid for two or three months after my last dose, then it started creeping back and, with the usual ups and downs, generally worsened until about month 5 or so and has been holding fairly steady. Now, at month six, it could be worse, but it's definitely not great.

Here's my question. I read something by David Healey who suggests as a rule of thumb that if depression returns relatively soon after ending medication (days to weeks) then it's likely to be related to withdrawal, but if it takes longer to return (months), then it could well be more of an underlying, non-withdrawal related condition. He did not give a specific rationale for that, but I expect he's thinking that the typical cycles for endogenous depression often take some time, whereas if it's withdrawal, well, when you withdraw the drugs that's the trigger, and then if you can stay off them it eventually gets better.

I did not have it like this at all when I started taking them, but it's fifteen years later now, I've taken some knocks, and there's generally less to be upbeat about now.

I've not had any withdrawal symptoms aside from mood--depression and anxiety. Oh, well, one thing: maybe a month and two months ago, when it was bad, it had more of a physical feeling or pain inside the head, whereas now it does seem to be more purely a mood thing--sadness, anxiety, despair at the worst. That physical sensation--hard to describe!--has been absent for a month or so.

Oh, well, there's the libido thing...that has not really come back the way I had hoped....yet.

To make it even more complicated, I'm doing some intense therapy, which is bringing up some tough issues. So there's the ol'...it gets worse before it gets better....thing that goes with that.

What do you all think? I suppose there's no way to know for sure without more time, but I have to say the possibility that it's not so much related to withdrawal seems more plausible than it did a few months ago.

That does not mean I'm about to start taking them again. If nothing else, I've lost twenty pounds and, with a semi-bum knee can run for the first time in fifteen years. And there is also the matter of learning to work with the storms in the head instead of just tamping them down; reviving atrophied mental muscles. Still, it's rough, as you all know.

Any thoughts appreciated, thanks so much!

E

Irishwill · 06-13-2012, 10:02 PM

E,

I feel I know exactly what you mean as I am struggling with the same issue. I don't know if you said you were depressed before taking Paxil or not but I never was depressed until withdrawal. My physical symptoms have resided but this depression, this horrible uneasy feeling, where I feel trapped and stuck has had a hold on me for a while now. I am in therapy as well and we just touched on some issues my therapist believes caused a lot of my problems and contributed to the depression (the depression that I believe was w/d induced) but yeah after talking about it I felt the most depressed I had felt this whole time. For a week until the next time I saw him I was in terrible shape. I asked him what the hell did you do to me and he said, we are getting to the root and the root is the hardest thing to deal with and causes the most pain, that's exactly why people suppress it because they don't want to deal with the pain. But similar to what you said he believes and I agree that you have to go through that pain and accept it for what it is before you can continue on. My doctor and I think this depression was long overdue and w/d just brought it to surface, but we are working on making me depression proof for the rest of my life. Which basically entails dealing with issues I didn't want to deal with and treating current issues not just letting them sit idle. So I think it's a combination, the w/d is def playing a factor yet depression isn't hidden by the drugs anymore, you have to begin to face some things you have been dodging and running from for a while. I don't know if I answered your question to your satisfaction but I hope I helped a little. This has been a question I wanted to post for a while I just didn't know how to word it exactly, or maybe I was just not willing to talk about it. Thanks for posting.

Irishwill · 06-13-2012, 10:04 PM

Not Paxil, zoloft, effexor etc****

caperjackie · 06-14-2012, 01:51 AM

I had brutal depression during months 6 - 9 after coming off paxil. Had never been depressed before in my life so am going to say that even though it was months after my last pill it was still WD related. The anxiety was through the roof during this time too. Once that bad (understatement lol) phase was over, things have been easier. Congrats on making it this far ....

enufodat · 06-14-2012, 06:46 AM

Thanks, all. Helpful as always. My thought of the morning is that, while it's helpful and maybe just inevitable, the slightly obsessive (for me) emphasis on trying to figure it out, know the causes, can sometimes get in the way a bit. A distraction from the hard work of adjusting, learning how to deal with it, etc. A question of balance; I think maybe sometimes I focus TOO much on this aspect. Since I'm not going back on the drugs, well, maybe more focus on the various ways of copying, moving through it, building a life around it. Nonetheless, always helpful and inpsiring to know others have had similar experiences and gotten better! E

emma35 · 06-14-2012, 09:00 AM

hi am new and am 12 weeks off all ADs and although I can function, go to work etc. I am still a long way from being well, I am not searching for life affirming happiness, just contentment, I have been reading this recovery book by a woman called bliss, that is enough for you to type into google to find it, it may help, I wish I was great as do you however i am determined not to go back on anything, I just long for the day that I can enjoy a full day with no thoughts!!!! I know it will come and you must too think this, I will put book up in full later but it is very common for withdrawrawl to come in waves, do not give up!!!! x

Shiloh1 · 06-14-2012, 10:09 AM

I'm not sure about what Dr. Healy said because I have had depression/anhedonia the whole time since my last pill and I did not have it this bad when I went on the drugs. My original issues were that I was bummed and stressed out due to some life changes/stressors that all happened at once but I could still find my way out of the black hole by making changes to my life or thinking/exercising/talking my way out of it and I was still able to feel joy from my kids or look on the bright side of what I actually DO have and being able to be grateful for many things even if other things weren't going well. Now though, this seems different. This is like I am unable to really feel any gratefulness or appreciation for life and all that it entails-like it's kind of the end of the world/doom depression.....kind of like i'm in a fog and I can't make the decisions that I need to in order to change my situation to get out of the depression. Like i'm trapped at a brain fog stand still.....for example: I used to be able to get excited about little things like going to Starbucks or pretty hardwood floors in a new house, but now, it's like I just don't really care about such things because who really cares in the end anyway.....make sense?

aberdeen · 06-14-2012, 10:51 AM

From what I have read here (obsessively and thoroughly at times) I believe people do hit a w/d reaction many months out. I don't care what anyone says, I have read soooo many stories of this very same thing happening to people. I also think, that if you are depressed because your brain is readjusting and resetting itself, dredging up crap in therapy is counter-productive. I went through some deep soul searching and rummaging in my past during w/d or whatever you want to call it.....and it made me feel worse. It made me scared that my past could haunt me, made me scared that I was weak and suddenly caving in under a heap of bad memories, having a nervous breakdown, and made me feel like my childhood must have been a lot crappier than it actually was. I'm sorry, but it's too much of a coincidence that 1000's of us have symptoms we have never experienced before popping up months after quitting an SSRI. That's my 2 cents.

aberdeen · 06-14-2012, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

I'm not sure about what Dr. Healy said because I have had depression/anhedonia the whole time since my last pill and I did not have it this bad when I went on the drugs. My original issues were that I was bummed and stressed out due to some life changes/stressors that all happened at once but I could still find my way out of the black hole by making changes to my life or thinking/exercising/talking my way out of it and I was still able to feel joy from my kids or look on the bright side of what I actually DO have and being able to be grateful for many things even if other things weren't going well. Now though, this seems different. This is like I am unable to really feel any gratefulness or appreciation for life and all that it entails-like it's kind of the end of the world/doom depression.....kind of like i'm in a fog and I can't make the decisions that I need to in order to change my situation to get out of the depression. Like i'm trapped at a brain fog stand still.....for example: I used to be able to get excited about little things like going to Starbucks or pretty hardwood floors in a new house, but now, it's like I just don't really care about such things because who really cares in the end anyway.....make sense?

I am in a very similar place. And I'm not even off yet!!

miriza · 06-14-2012, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

For example: I used to be able to get excited about little things like going to Starbucks or pretty hardwood floors in a new house, but now, it's like I just don't really care about such things because who really cares in the end anyway.....make sense?

Yeap, makes sense...that's me now...I have to force myself to do the things I used to like doing like arts and crafts and 90% of the time it's just a distraction but I get no joy/passion from it. I used to immerse myself in my art and get lost in time and then feel so much satisfaction from the things I created...that's gone now. I used to love with passion, now I do things intellectually...

miriza · 06-14-2012, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberdeen

From what I have read here (obsessively and thoroughly at times) I believe people do hit a w/d reaction many months out. I don't care what anyone says, I have read soooo many stories of this very same thing happening to people. I also think, that if you are depressed because your brain is readjusting and resetting itself, dredging up crap in therapy is counter-productive. I went through some deep soul searching and rummaging in my past during w/d or whatever you want to call it.....and it made me feel worse. It made me scared that my past could haunt me, made me scared that I was weak and suddenly caving in under a heap of bad memories, having a nervous breakdown, and made me feel like my childhood must have been a lot crappier than it actually was. I'm sorry, but it's too much of a coincidence that 1000's of us have symptoms we have never experienced before popping up months after quitting an SSRI. That's my 2 cents.

Totally agree with this...make it 4 cents (add my 2).

emma35 · 06-14-2012, 11:31 AM

the book that is great help is called recovery and renewal by bliss johns, it is definatley helping me cope, I cant believe I was so nieve to think that this would last 8 weeks and be done, I am thinking more like years now!!! I curse the day I was given ADs for anxiety that was purely in my body, never ant head problems, now I am dealing with head problems that I never had until i took ADs. I am worried that wehn I see my psych in 2 weeks time he will poo poo my WD symptoms and say I need drugs, even if he says that I am going to refer him to this website!!!! ther is hope I just know it!! x

Irishwill · 06-14-2012, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enufodat

Thanks, all. Helpful as always. My thought of the morning is that, while it's helpful and maybe just inevitable, the slightly obsessive (for me) emphasis on trying to figure it out, know the causes, can sometimes get in the way a bit. A distraction from the hard work of adjusting, learning how to deal with it, etc. A question of balance; I think maybe sometimes I focus TOO much on this aspect. Since I'm not going back on the drugs, well, maybe more focus on the various ways of copying, moving through it, building a life around it. Nonetheless, always helpful and inpsiring to know others have had similar experiences and gotten better! E

E,

I couldn't agree more. I have been trying to "solve this" as I have been able to do with most everything else in my life instead of focusing on accepting it and learning how to deal with it etc as you put it. I think it is hard for people who are "thinkers" to begin with because not being able to have a solution bothers us more than the average person.

06-13-2012, 09:48 PM	#1
enufodat Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 72	Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression Hello all. I was solid for two or three months after my last dose, then it started creeping back and, with the usual ups and downs, generally worsened until about month 5 or so and has been holding fairly steady. Now, at month six, it could be worse, but it's definitely not great. Here's my question. I read something by David Healey who suggests as a rule of thumb that if depression returns relatively soon after ending medication (days to weeks) then it's likely to be related to withdrawal, but if it takes longer to return (months), then it could well be more of an underlying, non-withdrawal related condition. He did not give a specific rationale for that, but I expect he's thinking that the typical cycles for endogenous depression often take some time, whereas if it's withdrawal, well, when you withdraw the drugs that's the trigger, and then if you can stay off them it eventually gets better. I did not have it like this at all when I started taking them, but it's fifteen years later now, I've taken some knocks, and there's generally less to be upbeat about now. I've not had any withdrawal symptoms aside from mood--depression and anxiety. Oh, well, one thing: maybe a month and two months ago, when it was bad, it had more of a physical feeling or pain inside the head, whereas now it does seem to be more purely a mood thing--sadness, anxiety, despair at the worst. That physical sensation--hard to describe!--has been absent for a month or so. Oh, well, there's the libido thing...that has not really come back the way I had hoped....yet. To make it even more complicated, I'm doing some intense therapy, which is bringing up some tough issues. So there's the ol'...it gets worse before it gets better....thing that goes with that. What do you all think? I suppose there's no way to know for sure without more time, but I have to say the possibility that it's not so much related to withdrawal seems more plausible than it did a few months ago. That does not mean I'm about to start taking them again. If nothing else, I've lost twenty pounds and, with a semi-bum knee can run for the first time in fifteen years. And there is also the matter of learning to work with the storms in the head instead of just tamping them down; reviving atrophied mental muscles. Still, it's rough, as you all know. Any thoughts appreciated, thanks so much! E __________________ 1994-2009 50-100 mg Zoloft (plus tried Effexor, Lexapro, Wellbutrin) 5/'09-7/'09 taper off Zoloft 7/'09-12/'09 no zoloft, rough times after ~ 2 mos. 1/'10-6/'10 50 mg zoloft 6/'10-1/'11 slow taper 2/'11-7/'11 off entirely, ok for 2-3 mos., then rough 7/'11-9/'11 50 mg 9/15/'11 - 11/15/'11 taper off 11/15/'11 to 2/'12, doing well but with some PSSD 2/12 - 7/12, depression gradually returning, fairly bad by June, but with other things at play (dying parent), so who knows the exact cause.

06-13-2012, 10:02 PM	#2
Irishwill Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 384	Re: Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression E, I feel I know exactly what you mean as I am struggling with the same issue. I don't know if you said you were depressed before taking Paxil or not but I never was depressed until withdrawal. My physical symptoms have resided but this depression, this horrible uneasy feeling, where I feel trapped and stuck has had a hold on me for a while now. I am in therapy as well and we just touched on some issues my therapist believes caused a lot of my problems and contributed to the depression (the depression that I believe was w/d induced) but yeah after talking about it I felt the most depressed I had felt this whole time. For a week until the next time I saw him I was in terrible shape. I asked him what the hell did you do to me and he said, we are getting to the root and the root is the hardest thing to deal with and causes the most pain, that's exactly why people suppress it because they don't want to deal with the pain. But similar to what you said he believes and I agree that you have to go through that pain and accept it for what it is before you can continue on. My doctor and I think this depression was long overdue and w/d just brought it to surface, but we are working on making me depression proof for the rest of my life. Which basically entails dealing with issues I didn't want to deal with and treating current issues not just letting them sit idle. So I think it's a combination, the w/d is def playing a factor yet depression isn't hidden by the drugs anymore, you have to begin to face some things you have been dodging and running from for a while. I don't know if I answered your question to your satisfaction but I hope I helped a little. This has been a question I wanted to post for a while I just didn't know how to word it exactly, or maybe I was just not willing to talk about it. Thanks for posting. __________________ Paxil-2001-2011 40 mg-30mg-20mg for Panic Attacks August 2011-poopout at 10 mg Tried other AD's for short periods never helped Failed Paxil R/I after 2 months at 10-20 mg Ativan for 10 months now off Paxil free April 2012

06-13-2012, 10:04 PM	#3
Irishwill Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 384	Re: Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression Not Paxil, zoloft, effexor etc**** __________________ Paxil-2001-2011 40 mg-30mg-20mg for Panic Attacks August 2011-poopout at 10 mg Tried other AD's for short periods never helped Failed Paxil R/I after 2 months at 10-20 mg Ativan for 10 months now off Paxil free April 2012

06-14-2012, 01:51 AM	#4
caperjackie Join Date: May 2011 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 809	Re: Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression I had brutal depression during months 6 - 9 after coming off paxil. Had never been depressed before in my life so am going to say that even though it was months after my last pill it was still WD related. The anxiety was through the roof during this time too. Once that bad (understatement lol) phase was over, things have been easier. Congrats on making it this far .... __________________ Was on Paxil 20mg for a few years Switched to Paxil 12.5 CR over 10 years ago Total time on Paxil around 14 years 2 failed attempts at cold turkey Tapered for over a year by skipping one dose per week each month Paxil free since April 14th 2011 Still having withdrawal symptoms but getting better LIFE IS GOOD TOTALLY DRUG FREE Supplements - Fish oils, Cal/mag, GABA September 2012 - Supplement free and feeling great

06-14-2012, 06:46 AM	#5
enufodat Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 72	Re: Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression Thanks, all. Helpful as always. My thought of the morning is that, while it's helpful and maybe just inevitable, the slightly obsessive (for me) emphasis on trying to figure it out, know the causes, can sometimes get in the way a bit. A distraction from the hard work of adjusting, learning how to deal with it, etc. A question of balance; I think maybe sometimes I focus TOO much on this aspect. Since I'm not going back on the drugs, well, maybe more focus on the various ways of copying, moving through it, building a life around it. Nonetheless, always helpful and inpsiring to know others have had similar experiences and gotten better! E __________________ 1994-2009 50-100 mg Zoloft (plus tried Effexor, Lexapro, Wellbutrin) 5/'09-7/'09 taper off Zoloft 7/'09-12/'09 no zoloft, rough times after ~ 2 mos. 1/'10-6/'10 50 mg zoloft 6/'10-1/'11 slow taper 2/'11-7/'11 off entirely, ok for 2-3 mos., then rough 7/'11-9/'11 50 mg 9/15/'11 - 11/15/'11 taper off 11/15/'11 to 2/'12, doing well but with some PSSD 2/12 - 7/12, depression gradually returning, fairly bad by June, but with other things at play (dying parent), so who knows the exact cause.

06-14-2012, 09:00 AM	#6
emma35 Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 17	Re: Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression hi am new and am 12 weeks off all ADs and although I can function, go to work etc. I am still a long way from being well, I am not searching for life affirming happiness, just contentment, I have been reading this recovery book by a woman called bliss, that is enough for you to type into google to find it, it may help, I wish I was great as do you however i am determined not to go back on anything, I just long for the day that I can enjoy a full day with no thoughts!!!! I know it will come and you must too think this, I will put book up in full later but it is very common for withdrawrawl to come in waves, do not give up!!!! x __________________ 12 years paroxetine, 6 months prozac, 4 months venlafaxine, 6 months drug free!! x

06-14-2012, 10:09 AM	#7
Shiloh1 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: California Posts: 372	Re: Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression I'm not sure about what Dr. Healy said because I have had depression/anhedonia the whole time since my last pill and I did not have it this bad when I went on the drugs. My original issues were that I was bummed and stressed out due to some life changes/stressors that all happened at once but I could still find my way out of the black hole by making changes to my life or thinking/exercising/talking my way out of it and I was still able to feel joy from my kids or look on the bright side of what I actually DO have and being able to be grateful for many things even if other things weren't going well. Now though, this seems different. This is like I am unable to really feel any gratefulness or appreciation for life and all that it entails-like it's kind of the end of the world/doom depression.....kind of like i'm in a fog and I can't make the decisions that I need to in order to change my situation to get out of the depression. Like i'm trapped at a brain fog stand still.....for example: I used to be able to get excited about little things like going to Starbucks or pretty hardwood floors in a new house, but now, it's like I just don't really care about such things because who really cares in the end anyway.....make sense? __________________ On 5 mgs Lexapro for 3 years due to stress. Last pill: 03/24/11 Still Dealing with the Following: Physical Symptoms: Totally GONE (except I am still unable to lose all the weight but could be because i'm pushing 40) Psychological Symptoms: Anhedonia: 60% Improved Motivation: 70% Improved Anger/Irritibility: 70% Improved Insomnia: gone, sleep all night now-most nights. Sense of Humor: Slowly returning Now wicked PMS that I did not have before meds

06-14-2012, 10:51 AM	#8
aberdeen Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Canada Posts: 2,917	Re: Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression From what I have read here (obsessively and thoroughly at times) I believe people do hit a w/d reaction many months out. I don't care what anyone says, I have read soooo many stories of this very same thing happening to people. I also think, that if you are depressed because your brain is readjusting and resetting itself, dredging up crap in therapy is counter-productive. I went through some deep soul searching and rummaging in my past during w/d or whatever you want to call it.....and it made me feel worse. It made me scared that my past could haunt me, made me scared that I was weak and suddenly caving in under a heap of bad memories, having a nervous breakdown, and made me feel like my childhood must have been a lot crappier than it actually was. I'm sorry, but it's too much of a coincidence that 1000's of us have symptoms we have never experienced before popping up months after quitting an SSRI. That's my 2 cents. __________________ *2 Timothy 1:7: "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."* 2005-2010 Effexor XR 112.5mg-262.5mg for PPD Dec 2010 Poop-out and rapid 3 month wean. Off Effexor March 2011 Hell started 1 month later-tried 3 other meds to deal with w/d nothing worked. . Now tapering from 20mg Paxil (still recovering from Effexor w/d) Oct'11 to Nov '12 20mg-10mg Mar 5/13- 9mg Apr 12/13-8.1mg May 5/13-7.3mg

06-14-2012, 11:31 AM	#12
emma35 Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 17	Re: Withdrawal vs. "regular" depression the book that is great help is called recovery and renewal by bliss johns, it is definatley helping me cope, I cant believe I was so nieve to think that this would last 8 weeks and be done, I am thinking more like years now!!! I curse the day I was given ADs for anxiety that was purely in my body, never ant head problems, now I am dealing with head problems that I never had until i took ADs. I am worried that wehn I see my psych in 2 weeks time he will poo poo my WD symptoms and say I need drugs, even if he says that I am going to refer him to this website!!!! ther is hope I just know it!! x __________________ 12 years paroxetine, 6 months prozac, 4 months venlafaxine, 6 months drug free!! x

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