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Old 03-09-2005, 03:23 PM   #1
hope
 
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Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

http://www.priory.com/psych/panes.htm
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Put on Paxil in 1996 for Post-partum depression. After 5th withdrawal attempt, went into severe debilitating withdrawal, restarted Paxil in the ER which didn't work anymore. Taken off again quickly by a shrink, started on Lexapro. Body rejected all drugs except benzos. Currently off all drugs. I'd say I'm recovered. Yeah, I'd say so.
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Old 03-09-2005, 05:03 PM   #2
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

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There is something of a similarity to the effects seen after benzodiazepine discontinuation (Ashton, 1987). In benzodiazpine witrhdrawal the symptoms occur 1-2 weeks after withdrawal and may persist to some degree. Th mechanism is thought to be related to GABA-ergic systems.
Funny thing Hope! This is what i just found to be true in my case. The addition of the branched chain amino acids, and glycine....which both act to increase GABA have proved to be balancing me out and ending some of the things that have bothered me for such a long time!!

THANKS!!
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Old 03-09-2005, 05:34 PM   #3
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

"this condition may well be more widespread than is presently recognised." - duh.


What about the amino acids? I KNOW I'm low on something. I WANT MY JOY BACK!!!!

-Shea
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Old 03-09-2005, 05:39 PM   #4
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

When he says similarity to benzo withdrawal, I think he just means the protracted nature of withdrawal, waxing and waning symptoms, etc. I don't think that he means that there is a common gabergic mechanism of withdrawal between benzos and antidepressants. In all of my reading, and graduate level psychopharm courses I've never heard of gaba being related to either the mechanism of action or withdrawal of antidepressants. Although I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some indirect effect. The only antidepressant I know of that significantly affects gaba is st. john's wort.
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Old 03-09-2005, 06:01 PM   #5
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Mike,

So, could the benzo withdrawal be quelled, to some extent, by taking St. John's wort? By the by, I'm at .125, if you hadn't noticed, via prior posts.

-Shea
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Old 03-09-2005, 06:02 PM   #6
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

What i think i understood from that is that those who have these long term effects....that the effects seem to be related to the GABA-ergic system.

In my personal experience....and by reading The Edge Effect by Eric Braverman....I have learned that i personally am low GABA at the present. The doc wanted me to take 5htp to help raise GABA in combination with 3 other amino acids in a complex that was supposed to raise GABA. My impression is that it also raised serotonin. I believe that i am unable to handle any extra serotonin at present and by taking this particular blend....it put me in serotonin syndrome for about a week.
I stopped the supplement and the episodes stopped. However i was still radically out of balance. Then we read the Edge Effect and i took the test in the front of it. It showed me as balanced Acetylcholine and Dopamine. Good high serotonin...if possibly just slightly deficient....however i dont think i can use any more as it pushes it too far. And kind of middle range GABA deficiency. OK....then i switched to his book The Healing Nutrients Within. What i need to boost GABA...but not boost serotonin....is branched chain Amino Acids BCAAs. and Glycine. Glycine as opposed to glutamic acid is the inhibitory GABA precursor....Glutamic Acid is the excitatory amino acid. I need to calm down....not excite. Brain Zaps....are they in fact over excited GABA-ergic system? too much electricity?? sure feels like it.
So i had started on Twinlab Amino Fuel prior to the 5htp stuff that made me nuts. the TAF helped in a big way!!! So i went back to it on saturday and started adding just a touch of glycine. I felt better. Sunday the same. I felt an inch better. Monday i consulted with my doc on it all. she agreed....and is getting the books too!
I bumped up how much BCAA and glycine i was taking. Tuesday....even better!!!! Altho the morning was rough. So i said...I need to take a dose of it before bedtime.
I woke up this morning with both eyes focusing in the same place!!! first time in so long i dont know!!! I drove 100 miles alone today and scheduled 5 bead classes and went grocery shopping!!! AND im not tired and im not too dizzy and my eyes can focus! I figure im onto the nutrients i have been lacking.....and craving too.

HOWEVER....this is only my situation. That's why you should get the book and take the test. I dont want anything that will directly tweek neurotransmitters for that sake alone. I want to do it with nutrients. Im eating the right foods now to boost what i need. In a short time i can even work down the glycine supplements because im eating the right foods.

Shea....YOU have to find out what will work for YOU. its all about amino acids and trace nutrients. but which ones exactly depends on where your body is at.
only you can figure that out. but at least we are figuring out how you can figure it out!
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Old 03-09-2005, 06:06 PM   #7
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Perish the thought. St. John's Wort works on serotonin. And, It think I recall that you are particularly susceptibel to serotonin syndrome, but even if you weren't, it is not recommended that St. John's Wort be mixed with an SSRI.

Seeing as how I have The Edge Effect on the brain, thanks to the recommendation by Silence4Now, I recommend reading it and working with diet and possiblty supplemets. He has excellent assessment and diet and explanations etc.
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Old 03-09-2005, 06:45 PM   #8
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheacarney
Mike,

So, could the benzo withdrawal be quelled, to some extent, by taking St. John's wort? By the by, I'm at .125, if you hadn't noticed, via prior posts.

-Shea
Shea,

I wouldn't recommend it. Because it works on serotonin, dopamine, Gaba, and according to a respected academic pharmacologist who spoke at my school it has a total of 27 active ingredients, it would likely be disasterous. The idea that gaba is related to benzo withdrawal makes sense and is likely true on some level but when I was in my horrendous benzo withdrawal of 93-95 Gaba supplementation did absolutely nothing for me. Benzos work by helping gaba to do it's job better, by holding chloride channels open longer, which results in inhibition. But again, at least in my case gaba supplemention did nothing. However one of the meds that the addiction doctor gave me was gabergic (tegretol). I think it generally worked my stabilizing the cell membrane rather than by alleviating any specific gabergic deficit. I would recommend waiting it out though rather then taking another med or supplement. There are so many of us who have had exacerbations by doing this that I would suggest waiting.

I've been closely watching your progress and miss chatting with you. I hope relatively speaking your spirits are up. Take care.

Last edited by Light : 03-09-2005 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 03-09-2005, 06:52 PM   #9
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

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Originally Posted by defonz3
What i think i understood from that is that those who have these long term effects....that the effects seem to be related to the GABA-ergic system.
Hi Bev,

I interpreted the paragraph the same way that you did when I first read it but when it didn't make sense biochemically and because there have been virtually no studies conducted on the physiological mechanism of protracted antidepressant withdrawal, I questioned it and took a stab at what he might have meant. He has an email address linked to the article if you or anybody else feels like dropping him a line to get some clarity.

I am so glad you are feeling better What is the test in the Edge Effect book? Are they questions of the "I often feel_____." variety or is it some other approach?
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Old 03-09-2005, 07:23 PM   #10
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Okay, guys, I'm off to Barnes and Noble. I'm trying to come off a rather small amount of Xanax, and it's pretty darn hard. I'm halving a .25mg tablet, that's already cut in half, from .5. Good lord it's hard. I think I'm not quite through with the Paxil withdrawal, based on my ups and downs, but I so badly want to be free of all of it, so I can get on with the healing.

-Shea
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Old 03-09-2005, 07:54 PM   #11
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
Hi Bev,

I interpreted the paragraph the same way that you did when I first read it but when it didn't make sense biochemically and because there have been virtually no studies conducted on the physiological mechanism of protracted antidepressant withdrawal, I questioned it and took a stab at what he might have meant. He has an email address linked to the article if you or anybody else feels like dropping him a line to get some clarity.

I am so glad you are feeling better What is the test in the Edge Effect book? Are they questions of the "I often feel_____." variety or is it some other approach?
But because serotonin and GABA work somewhat as a pair of neurotransmitters....is it possible like you said that is has an indirect effect on some as to lower the amount of or mechanism of GABA. I also need to understand the metabolization of these 2 neurotransmitters more.

and...part two....
THANKS!
Yes...the test is about 40 questions first for each of 4 neurotransmitters....and then about 25 questions each again. The first part determines your dominant neurotransmitter....the second part determines what deficiency or excess you may have. Mine was fairly obvious when i finished. it showed a fairly significant GABA deficiency and while many have suggested that you can raise GABA with 5htp and these other aminos...I had the gut feeling that it would cause too much serotonin but i listened to the doctor first...(duh) and got myself in trouble. I totally understand now why that did not work. by gently weaning onto glycine and BCAAs it seems to be shifting me slowly. i do have a headache today but i think only from the shifting. i need to go very very gradually.
GABA supplements have been real big lately. But now i understand that you cant absorb GABA...you have to do a precursor.
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:02 PM   #12
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Shea,

I kicked the benzos, it was about a week and a half of anxiety and then another roller coaster ride for a few weeks before I felt free of it. Funny thing is I didn't "crave" paxil after stopping it, I actually just wanted the Paxil again to stop the withdrawal. But I noticed with the Benzo, every now and then I just wanted one so I could check out for a while. The xanax was such a bad drug for me I knew better than indulge. I could have used some IV
Ativan though , but can only get that in the ER and I'm avoiding that place.

I found The Edge Effect at the local library. Saved myself 20 bucks. I only have about 10 K in receipts from all the stuff I've tried so far. I've got some massive dizziness and head shocks going on today, so we'lll see how the reading goes. I'd sure like to get off this boat. Plus this stupid cold is back. I called my husband at work today and cried on the phone. :-( Poor guy came home to a dinner of two left over tuna sandwiches, didn't complain a bit.

I showed the above article to my shrink when I was about 5 months off Paxil and still having a heck of a time. He shrugged his shoulders and said he had checked with some colleagues and there was no "research" indicating I was still dealing with Paxil discontinuation. So if you show it to them and they don't believe you, what else can you do???
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Put on Paxil in 1996 for Post-partum depression. After 5th withdrawal attempt, went into severe debilitating withdrawal, restarted Paxil in the ER which didn't work anymore. Taken off again quickly by a shrink, started on Lexapro. Body rejected all drugs except benzos. Currently off all drugs. I'd say I'm recovered. Yeah, I'd say so.
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Old 03-09-2005, 09:32 PM   #13
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

By the by, I saw an endocrinologist, who did some testing, and deduced, even before getting the results that I have neurotransmitter deficits that "I'll never replenish, on my own." She's already talking about antidepressants. This is a vicious, vicious cycle. I'll never see my deficits repleted? I get so sick whenever I see a doctor. I lose hope. Reading the article featured in this post makes me very afraid. My body is too sensitive for SSRIs. It rejects them. I cannot take them. I am so scared that I'm terminally depleted.

-Shea
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Old 03-09-2005, 09:47 PM   #14
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Shea, Think!! How in the world could she have determined this from testing that isn't even available??? I hate when doctors talk off the cuff like it's proven fact! Believe me, if this was true there would be a whole lot more public outcry than we see now!
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Old 03-09-2005, 10:00 PM   #15
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

and that's nonsense that you will never replenish them on your own. If you know the proper way to eat and the proper combination of foods that will provide the amino building blocks for those deficits...you will replenish them. AND...its worth a shot to try this rather than add in a drug that you can not metabolize.

and i think the NMT can get your body to reconnect functions that may be sluggish or not as effective as they can be.
I know it has helped me in many areas....it has been a struggle as the body adjusts, detoxes and makes these cellular shifts.....but i know its helping too.
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Old 03-09-2005, 10:22 PM   #16
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

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How in the world could she have determined this from testing that isn't even available??? I hate when doctors talk off the cuff like it's proven fact!

DITTO!!!!
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Old 03-10-2005, 08:57 AM   #17
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Just like "discontinuation syndrom" was not recognize 5 years ago, "prolonged discontinuation syndrom" is not recognize.
It took me 10 months to feel better after paxil and it was not only a relapse. I think it is time doctors, pharmaceutical companies and governement admits they dont know what they are doing!

It is time people take control of their own health instead of wanting to be given the "miracle pill" : changing is hard and it comes from hard work, not taking a pill.
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Old 03-10-2005, 10:10 AM   #18
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty
Shea, Think!! How in the world could she have determined this from testing that isn't even available??? I hate when doctors talk off the cuff like it's proven fact! Believe me, if this was true there would be a whole lot more public outcry than we see now!
I think I'll start a thread under Misc. entitled: Stupid things my doctor told me.
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Hope.

"I never cared much for flim flam doctors." (Doctor Baker, Little House on the Prairie).

Put on Paxil in 1996 for Post-partum depression. After 5th withdrawal attempt, went into severe debilitating withdrawal, restarted Paxil in the ER which didn't work anymore. Taken off again quickly by a shrink, started on Lexapro. Body rejected all drugs except benzos. Currently off all drugs. I'd say I'm recovered. Yeah, I'd say so.
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Old 03-10-2005, 08:29 PM   #19
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Genevieve,

Did you have difficulty with depression and anxiety that outlasted your physical symptoms?

Most of my physical symptoms are gone, seven months off, however, I remain very blue or have anxiety issues; not attacks, but I'm very uncomfortable with nausea to boot. My presenting depression was not even close to this. The anxiety is new.

-Shea
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Old 03-11-2005, 04:03 PM   #21
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Re: Article on prolonged SSRI discontinuation symptoms.

Hey again, Shaney.

I think I'm going to start writing down my swings. I never swing over to a really good place (actually, I think it's happened all of twice), but I do get occasional breaks, from the intense anxiety and associated depression. It happens, about six times, in a day. I'm never stable.

I was told I needed to pick up my stepdaughter today, which was fine, at the time. Sadly, the closer I get to the time I must leave, the more aggitated I become. Responsiblity aggitates the hell out of me, right now. Any obligation. This is not like me. I always tried to go out of my way, for others, before now. My husband is out of town and I worry how my mood will effect my stepdaughter. Her mother cannot care for her. She's been with us, for over a month, without seeing her mother, save one night. Her mother lives, literally two minutes, from our place. I feel compassion for her mother, and her issues. I'm sensitive to the problems of others, but I suspect I'm in worse shape than her mother. Her mother is without remorse. I'm full of it. She teaches yoga and does what she damn well pleases. She's completely unreliable. I'm a little pissed off about it. I take up her slack, even though I'm a COMPLETE WRECK!!

-Shea
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