New, depressed & begging for reassurance

[Healing]

Hello dear people. This is my first post but I have been reading PP voraciously for two months. I've been just too depressed to post but am making myself start today. You people are wonderful, just wonderful, and I want you to know that, as a "guest," I have gained so much support and knowledge from you.

As you can see from my signature, I was on ADs for 8 years, took 20 months to wean off Paxil, and am now about 8 months post-last dose. I've had a lot of the symptoms other people report, but my main symptoms during weaning were severe muscle pain and contraction (head, neck, back, butt, legs) and emotional lability (rage, depression, anxiety). I had to wean at the rate of 2/5 mg per 3 weeks when I got below 8 mg because I had to be able to function at work and the symptoms were so bad.

Since my last dose, my physical symptoms have improved dramatically. However, I have had several months of insomnia and that waking adrenalized in the early a.m. thing. I see progress on these two symptoms. I also have the catastrophizing, obsessive anxiety, and easy over-stimulation. These are not improving yet.

But the thing that's scaring me the most that I would dearly love reassurance about is that I have been severely depressed since about 2 months after my last dose. I have been crying almost every day, sometimes several times a day. That's 6 months this has been going on. The only time I ever felt like this before was the first time I came off of Paxil in 1997, at which point I had no idea I was suffering withdrawal and rebound. That time, I gave up after 8 months of it and went on Zoloft. Obviously, I'm not going to do that this time, but can anyone reassure me that this will EVER end? Do any of you long-timers know of anyone whose main withdrawal symptom was heavy depression? Did anyone ever have heavy depression this long? Did anyone with heavy rebound depression ever recover?

Thanks for your help. I look forward to becoming a participating member of this community. You guys have saved my sanity so far. Please keep on doing it.

[feelin'_wiggy]

Hi Healing. I'm so sorry you are having such a rough time of it. Believe me when I tell you that I understand depression. Since you were unable to even post here until now, you're probably feeling helpless. There is hope, Healing. There is always hope. The road back starts with tiny steps, and you've taken one today by writing here. When you feel comfortable with that one, you can decide the next one. There is a ton of information and support here to guide you, so ask lots of questions.

Have you read the Supplement forum and Withdrawal Guide? Are you in or have you considered psychotherapy? There are ways to successfully and safely deal with depression. It's my experience that it's seldom just one thing, but a combination. Body, mind and spirit, you know. Like I said, don't be afraid to ask questions, and if you just feel like ranting, that's okay too.

[Katesmom]

Welcome, healing-

I'm so sorry that you are suffering! I wish I had guarantees I could give you, but I do know this--this Paxil recovery is prolonged. I keep reading about Laurie's son Ryan having marked improvement at the 10 month mark, and I hang on to that. It may not be 10 months for me or for you, but there is a promise in there that if we hang in there, recovery will come. In the meantime, we have to find ways to cope. God bless you!

[Charlie]

Healing
Are you on any supplements right now? When you quit the Prozac did you taper or just quit? What was the Dose of Paxil you were on and the dose of Prozac? These drugs are very complex and each persons reaction can be very unique because we are all put together a little different.

[Healing]

Thanks, Deborah, yes, I've been reading like mad. Your empathy brought tears to my eyes. Have done lots and lots of psychotherapy. Not in it now. Don't want to have to explain Paxil withdrawal.

Kim -- really appreciate it. Yeah, Ryan's story is one I cling to.

Charlie -- I was on 30 mg of Paxil. Took 20 months to wean off it. I was on 20 mg Prozac and I went down 10 mg per month. I am taking tons of supplements including the famous magnesium and fish oil (in moderate doses because I can't really tell if anything helps or not). Have also tried Ayurveda, Traditional Chinese Medicine. Tried 5-HTP only for a couple of weeks and got too worried about whether it was a good idea. It wasn't doing anything at all for me or against me. That was in May-June. The Ayurvedic herbs were too stimulating. I feel I initially got some benefit from the TCM herbs but am now afraid they might be prolonging recovery and will start to taper. In 1997, I tried St. John's Wort which did nothing to ease THAT Paxil withdrawal.

[Bern]

Welcome to PaxilProgress, healing. I'm glad that you finally decided to tell your story.

When I tried to withdraw from Paxil, depression was my worst withdrawal symptom. When I moved from 20mg to 10mg in November of 2004, I was depressed for about 4 weeks, and then I ended up in the hospital because of it. The doctor at the hospital put me back on 25mg of Paxil CR. I was desperate to do anything to stop my depression.

If I were you, I WOULD NOT GO BACK ON PAXIL simply because your almost at that light at the end of the tunnel!!! Your eight months off of Paxil and the physical symptoms are all gone.....and soon, the mental withdrawal symptoms will be gone too. Hang in there, you are almost out of the dark!

[Healing]

Thank you so much, Bern! I've been thinking just along these lines -- that maybe part of the reason I don't read about so many people going through such severe, enduring depression as mine is that they have been urged by other people or forced by circumstances to go back on meds. And I will definitely hold out. Thanks so mcuh for your encouragement. I so need it.

[Bern]

Your welcome. I'm happy I could help.

[Charlie]

I really think you went off the prozac to fast and what you're experiencing now is a combination of Paxil and Prozac. Even though you were going off Paxil the serotonin reuptake was still being altered by the Prozac. Before all of this is over the Paxil and Prozac that is in your brain stem will have to be processed out of your body. It will take time to get through this but you will eventually make it.
There are others here that know much more than I do about the supplements and I'm sure they'll be around before long to help.

[tcl18]

Hello healing. Hang in there. Lord knows that I know how rough this can be - while I did not have depression during withdrawal, I've had more than my fair shareof anxiety and obsessive thoughts while trying to get off this stuff. One thing remains true at all times - whe your post here and ask for advice, you get it and it' good. Learn to trust it because in my experince, when you're feeling really awful and this site tells you to hang on it will be alright, it will!! Keep telling yourself that it is withdrawal it will get better, and it will.
I had post partum depression and it was hell. I found the following things helped through the PPD: get outside and walk, listen to the birds and smile even if you don't feel like it - it actually does make you feel better; talk to someone about your feelings - friend, therapist whoever, just get it out; pray for strength; exercise and eat well.
All the best to you in your journey.

[Healing]

Charlie -- Yeah, you may very well be right that I weaned off the Prozac too fast. At that time, I had no idea that one could suffer withdrawal from Prozac itself nor did I even suspect that I would have Paxil withdrawal after my last dose. I thought I had weaned so extremely slowly -- 20 months -- that I would be done. I didn't find PP until a few months after my last dose when I was scrambling to explain why I was getting better in some ways but much worse in others. Interestingly, the brain stem is exactly where I've had the most pain. Thanks very much for your encouragement.

tcl18 -- Many thanks for "joining" with me in my misery. It's very kind. Your advice is good and thanks for the reassurance.

[Delynbetter]

I was only on Paxil for 7 months (25mg CR), and I hope you only take this is for what it is worth in comparison. (For the rest of the members, I recalculated and I was in the grips for 7 months.)

It took me 4+ months to completely wean off of them. Better days have come and more of them. I started it for anxiety/panic disorder and ended up with panic/anxiety and depression during and after withdrawal. My greatest spirit lifter has been the basic fact that I have beat this. I know that this is not the case in many situations, but it is that one string of hope that has continued my progress.

The depression, anxiety or panic that we originally began Paxil blows up in magnitude coming off. New problems emerge that were never there before. During our time on Paxil we have forgotten how to actually handle these problems on our own. Not only can we not handle them, we have no recollection of how to react logically.

Everyone has questioned about the supplements and you have confirmed that you are taking them. A supplement that I have found to be beneficial for me, whether it's placebo or whatever, is Holy Basil. I am taking so many supplements that I'm not quite sure that this is the one thing that is helping the others, but I have to mention it since I believe I do feel a true difference on it. (It could be that when I take my two Holy Basil capsules with my 2 garlic capsules gives me the feeling of instant Pesto. )

Talk as much as you want about anything here. We'll throw suggestions and support. By the Grace of God I found this board during cold turkey withdrawal. They pulled me through and got me on the right track, while convincing me that I was not losing my mind. I have learned so much here, and I have received more support than I could ever expect from any therapist for any price. (I am not downplaying the need and usefulness of personal therapy.) Welcome again to the board and know that you have a whole new set of support lines. Here's hoping for the beginning of some relief for you!

[sherijo]

Healing,
I am in cheerleader mode today, so.....

You can do it, you can do it! YOU CAN! YOU CAN!

Believe that your body will learn and readjust! it will! I know this is a long process, but you WILL RECOVER!

hang in there! we are praying for you!

sheri

[Healing]

Thanks so much for your support Delyn. Yes, there is no question that my current depression is significantly different from anything I felt before I went on ADs. In fact, I can tell you the exact date -- 25 Nov 05 -- when it dawned on me that I had been through Paxil withdrawal in 1997. THAT post-Paxil depression was also different from anything I'd felt before and until a few weeks ago I had never felt I understood what it was about. Now I do. It was drug-induced. What a shocking, shocking realization for me.

Also, it was only by reading on PP that I have come to realize how apathetic and exhausted I became on ADs, how I let my life go by in some ways. (To be fair to myself, I still worked extremely hard in others.)

I have some Holy Basil / Tulsi tea that I drink. I will try to read up on it more. Thanks for that.

This is a wonderful thing, this paxilprogress. I have never joined an online forum before and I have been so impressed by the constructive and sensible culture of this place.

Sherijo -- you are adorable. I love your spirit and sense of humor. Thanks very much for your prayers. I crave 'em.

[scotty]

Healing, I somehow missed this thread! You've gotten good advice from everyone. A big part of getting off AD's is recognizing withdrawal for what it is. A long process in which things may get worse before they get better.. but they DO get better. Having others who have been there that you can bounce symptoms, emotions, rants, and crazy symptoms off of can make the world of difference in getting through this. You have that with this group. You were on AD's for a long time, but that doesn't mean that you have to be on them forever. It will take time to heal, sometimes a frustratingly long time, but it will happen. Stick with us!

[Healing]

Laurie -- It's hard to face, but I guess that being on ADs for a longer time may well lead to a longer withdrawal / readjustment period afterwards. Does this seem to be the case? It seems like a lot of people in PP were on ADs for a shorter time. Maybe we'll start seeing more long-time users and will be able to find a pattern. I know there are a million variables. I'm just looking for reassurance. It was reassuring to me to read that Ryan's post-wean symptoms were mostly emotional and not physical. I wonder if there's a bit of a pattern there -- that physical withdrawal symptoms abate, but emotional ones worsen and then abate? I DO know this is not the case for everyone. I was just wondering if it might be somewhat common.

Anyway, musings, I know. You do a superb job of moderating. I don't know how you do it. Thank you.

[scotty]

Healing, in Ryan's case the emotional was much harder than the physical. BUT it's the physical changes in the brain that cause that emotional upheaval. We're learning more everyday. The one thing that hasn't changed is that patience is the hardest part of all this.

[Healing]

Laurie -- it really helps for you to emphasize that the emotional upheaval is caused by physical changes. For me, it's harder to remember that the depression is an "artifact" of neurological (and maybe other physical) damage, no different than if it were seizures or cardiac problems. I'm at risk for over-psychologizing -- finding more meaning in the depression than is really there -- since I have a million years of therapy under my belt and a strong tendency to think this way. But you can't "work through" neurological damage, and IMO there's a limit to how effective cognitive techniques can be when the brain, itself, is physically recovering. Don't get me wrong -- I still do my cognitive techniques all day every day, as well as eternally checking in on what I am supposed to be learning from this situation. I'm just trying not to feel bad about not being more successful at managing the depression.

[Adina]

Originally Posted by Healing

But you can't "work through" neurological damage, and IMO there's a limit to how effective cognitive techniques can be when the brain, itself, is physically recovering.

I just made this same discovery myself. Going through a cognitive behavioral book, I realized that now I can use these tools. During withdrawal, even that couldn't make me think sanely and pull me out of my depression and anxiety. I'm happy that you posted here because this is really the best place. And the natural stuff you are trying is definitely a positive.

[feelin'_wiggy]

Hi Healing. It certainly sounds like you are doing all the right things. I've become a strong believer that over time behavior can change brain chemistry. No wonder patience is a virtue. It's the answer to so many things.

[dar7726]

Hi Healing and welcome,

I was on AD's at least twice the length of time you were on them. (God I hate saying that) But never on Paxil. Seems to me that the insomnia may be causing the depression. We need to sleep to be able to heal, to deal with the world, to rejuvenate. This has been my biggiest hurdle.

Like you I was off AD's years ago and in hindsight I know that what I experienced after being off of them and going through an operation was WITHDRAWAL, and like you I was put back on the AD's.

One thing to consider is that AD's are endocrine disruptors so you may want to consider having your hormones checked to find out where you are there and get some natural assistance for a while. Just a thought. I did and my doc said it may have been why the sleep was so elusive. It did help some, but I had to go off of some of that help due to insurance issues.

Anyway, I've been off 21 months on the 12 of this month. Still having some sleep issues, but at least it is better. Valarian of all things is working for me now. It never did early on. Things do change and get better over time.

Look to springtime. Things change over months. Take any little improvement as a big success.

Hugs,
Darlene

[Healing]

Thanks Deborah!! That was a good line about patience. I'm gonna quote you on that.

Adina -- That's very interesting what you said about noticing that the cognitive techniques became much more accessible when not in withdrawal. Thanks for the validation.

Darlene -- When you were in AD withdrawal years ago did you have rebound depression? How long did the withdrawal go on before you were put back on meds, do you remember? And this time around, when would you say you started to feel better?

I totally agree about sleep and about hormones. I am taking a natural thyroid supplement I got from my acupuncturist because my hair was thinning during w/d. (Can you believe this crap?) And my period has been irregular. I'm seeing improvement on these two things, thank goodness.

As for sleep, it SEEMS to be improving (knock on wood). I have cut out caffeine, improved my "sleep hygiene" and sometimes take valerian, or melatonin, or lemon balm, or a benadryl. Currently, am trying not to take anything. But I still wake up between 4-6 a.m. with those bloody adrenaline bursts. Have to get up and poop. Can sometimes meditate myself back to sleep, sometimes not.

I can't believe I am going through this. Or that any of you are going through this. It is surreal.

[altostrata]

Healing! Please take this as reasssurance from a person who tends to be analytical and intellectual. You can do it.

I cried for 7 months after discontinuing Paxil (and 2 months of hypomania), with insomnia, anxiety attacks, intense emotional pain etc. These are all chemical events, not your emotions. Don't own them, they're not you.

I found that I could distract myself in those waves of anxiety by concentrating on breathing slower and deeper and getting up and doing something: Take a little walk, wash the dishes, drink a glass of orange juice. I found drinking orange juice and eating oranges and tangerines to be calming, so eventually I started taking timed-release vitamin C, 500mg/day, and by gum it seems to help.

Low-impact cardio exercise was really good for me, too.

The intense emotional pain and weeping is something else. I believe the weeping is physiological (cholinergic rebound, stimulates tearing). The emotional pain was nightmarish spiralling into my worst memories. When you find yourself facing one of these black holes, use your willpower to back away. Think of something else! I like to think about kittens and cats.

After years of looking at my bad experiences in therapy, and being analytical anyway, I feel too easily into trying to figure out the nightmares. Don't bother. You can't learn anything from them. Use your willpower to close the door on them when they come knocking.

Look to the future, you will get better. I'm almost "normal" now, still trying to keep much less intense depression and anxiety at bay.

[Healing]

Altostrata -- I just returned your pm. Thanks!

I really obsess about two things -- will this ever end, and is whatever lovely symptom that is happening at the moment really withdrawal. Round and round and round and round...and round. Ugh.

I am very interested by your cholinergic hypothesis -- that the weeping is cholinergic rebound. It FEELS like I'm crying out of PTSD (or "Current TSD"). Would you mind explaining your hypothesis more?

I'm also interested in your Vit. C hypothesis. I take about 2000 mg a day. Always have, so I have nothing to compare it with. Have you read anything that says Vit. C is calming?

If -- nay, when -- I get out of this, I'm going to have a very strong mind. I work ALL day on affirmations.

Thanks so much for finding my thread and me.

[dar7726]

Hi Healing, I was just responding to someone elses thread and remembered that I had not responded to your thread here about my previous withdrawal experience. Actually that was about 9 years ago and to be honest I can't remember to much about it.

What I do recall is that I was off AD's somehow. And to be honest I don't think I really experienced to much withdrawal at that time. I remember that I was off because it was during that time that I was having excessive bleeding (Fibroids...ie which I now believe were partial caused by the AD's but I can't prove that) and had to have a partial hysterectomy. During the surgery I had to have a Morphine Drip. I've learned since that Morphine is a serotonergic medication.

So I come out of the hospital to recover and was back to work about a month later. Back a work I start feeling as if I feeling down...so I tried Saint Johns wart instead of an AD. Over time it doesn't seem to work so I go back to my doc and they put me back on AD's.

It was all during this time...(because I worked at this place about 2 1/2 years that I had extreme insomnia). I would sleep maybe one hour or 1 1/2 hours a night. Get up go to work, not take a nap an still the next night the same thing. This went on for 2 years.

What I don't recall is if this started before the operation...which would mean it started after going off AD's. or if it started after I restarted the AD's. But all in all my best memory says it covered both. So I was going though with drawal and was not on AD's, then had the operation, and put on Morphine..an it was continuing and back on ADs it continued until the AD's finally made it a bit better.

Also mostly during this time, I was hyper almost manic when I think back. Not sleeping and although feeling tired still feeling like I had energy. Odd. Similar to what I experienced coming off the AD's this time.

It's been 21 months off AD's and I'm still struggling with sleep. I did however go to a natural doc 1 year and 3 months ago. At that time he told me my estrogen was extremely high (AD's are endocrine disruptors) and gave me some supplements to balance that out. I took them for a good deal of time and then had to stop. I believe had I continued I would not still be stuggling with the sleep issue. I think a good part of the sleep issues for those on these drugs more than a few years is hormonal...again because these drugs screw up the hormones.

I know I've run on and on but I hope something I've said here helps,

Darlene