Strange but true

[dave]

Well I started a new thread on last nights terror. See it has almost halved. Which leads me to wonder what was going on. I know i had a stomach bug but the way it acted on me has left me pondering why.

See as some of you know im working with a doc / nutritionist who focusses on the stomach as the main form of treatment. When i emailed her about it all she put so,e of my ongoing problem to toxins still being leached from the bowel to the blood. Now i know this is part of the candida gut thing im working with but it then leads me to think how much paxil is sat in our gut slowly leaching its way back into our system. Anyway she argued that i could still have compacted 'whatever' which alows toxins back into the blood causing confusion ocd etc and proscribed a course of colonics!!!! lovely

[Gottabestrong]

so you are saying that you have candida? how do u know toxins are leaking into your blood?

[MizzT]

careful with tooooo many colonics, dave. some are ok. i think Hope had trouble with toooo many. go slowly as with anything. i would do colon hydrotherapy but im just too far from a place who does them. i cant see driving an hour home after that.

That said....i think the theory behind what you are saying is absolutely true. the liver gets compromised so maybe you arent detoxing as well as you could....the toxins get stored in fat. then as the liver gains its ability back...you process toxins...and they pass into the colon. ok...if you arent cleaning that out real well....the toxins leach thru the gut wall back into the blood stream. that's why a good enema when you are feeling crappy will help you feel better....because it washes out the toxins...and does not allow them to reabsorb and make you sick. Colonics are going to be more frequent and more thorough....but i do think it will help the body go thru the process and make you feel less sick as you go.

[Gottabestrong]

how do u know if you have leaky gut syndrome?

[dave]

I think she also said that my bowel was compacted!!!!

Leaky gut is told in many ways, im not an expert but i had a food intolerance test first which showed way too many intolerances and then went for a stool analysis which showed a bacterial imbalance.

[MizzT]

are you eliminating normally?

if no...are you taking magnesium?
because....if you take enough magnesium...you definitely will not be compacted.

[dar7726]

Dave, I am exercising now daily for 45 minutes...in homes of resetting the sleep clock and all that goes with improving. It's been 2 to 3 weeks...not exactly sure. What I am noticing is that my stomach is starting to bother me, and my lung area. I think I am throwing toxins around...I truely do...but am still going to go forward for a while and see how it goes. I'll increase my water intake, mag and psyllium. As you know I have yeast and leaky gut as well.

Darlene

[dar7726]

Gotta...search leaky gut on PP or yeast overgrowth.

Short version. Antibiotics kill good bacteria...yeast overgrow and take its place, yeast grow tendrils that poke holes through the lining of the intestines allowing food particles and toxins from yeast to invade the blood stream and can affect any organ, even the brain.

It is a contributor to depression as well as many other illness and yeast overgrowth is called the great mimicker.

Darlene

[BanjoDan]

Dave,

be careful about going crazy with this candida diagnosis. These "natural" doctors are really hot right now, but there is NO way to prove you have a yeast overgrowth in your gut. You could have 10 stool samples and each one could tell you a different thing, I know this because I had multiple tests at different labs all over the country and one told me a had candida, another one told me I had tons of good bacteria and another told me I had low good bacteria. All within the same week. If you really had candida you wouldn't be able to get out of bed. I went through candida diets, candida killing herbs and even hardcore antifungal drugs and guess what not only did my stool tests again say I still had candida on one and not on the other, but I didn't feel any better. So I began eating sugar again ALOT of it, and drinking alcohol again and guess what I haven't felt better. Candida is quite the buzzword right now but just like all these labels for depression and bi-polar and ocd etc.. it is clearly being overdiagnosed. All these herbs and cleansings put quite a lot of stress on the body especially the liver especially for people who have been putting paxil poison in their body for quite some time. There is also NO way to prove you have "Leaky GUT" or if it even exists, again another buzzword to make you buy $1,000 of dollars in supplements and pay enormous amounts of money to natural doctors who aren't covered by insurance.

If you want to know if you have a compaction go see a real GI doctor and have him give you a colonoscopy, it's higly unlikely you have a compaction and if you do, paxil is not still in your gut, it finds it's way to your blood stream WAY before it can hang around in the inestines.

I would tread carefully on this diagnosis, if you were to read other message boards for candida you'll find that the majority of people blame all their ills for this mythical diagnosis and then don't actually deal with what's wrong with them, so they do all this cleansing etc.. and they don't get any better, at the same time they take antifungal drugs like itracnoazole or ketaconazole etc.. which not only stress your liver, but can mess with your neurotransmitters, yes the same ones paxil did. The idea that Candida can cause 100's of different ilnesses hasn't been proven by anyone.. in fact 99% of the candida information out there has been taken from ONE book by ONE author named William Crook. (now if his last name isn't ironic I don't know what the term means) His basis for this disease is not based on actual medical studies and since it has been released in the 80's there hasn't been one actual medical study that can prove it's existence. Just my 2 cents on the subject since this board seems to be very pro candida without giving the other side some thought.

[dar7726]

I'm not even going to bother!

[Scott]

how the heck long do we have to take probiotics until we can safely say the good balance has been restored.. once it is restored i can't see why we need to keep taking them.. we don't continue breast feeding through adulthood for that reason. I had to cut down on them because i think they were bothering me. i don't think we're designed to take all that stuff..of course we have to fix what antibiotics have done.

[BanjoDan]

Scott it only takes a month to rebalance the bacteria in your gut, if that is what was wrong in the first place. The reason they make you feel bad is a lot of those probiotics you are taking are not colonizing your gut, but passing on through, and the discomfort is your body getting rid of them. I'm sure some people will say it is die-off which is another buzzword for killing yeast and toxins but there is YEAST in your GUT that belongs there, in fact it is in a symbiotic relationship with your bacteria, so by overodsing on probiotics you are just killing what is supposed to be there in the first place.

[MizzT]

Originally Posted by BanjoDan

it could just exacerbate the problem. It is serious and I would follow your real doc's advice.

the irony of life is seriously ****ing killing me.




*i, have become, comfortably numb*

[BanjoDan]

Because everyone here is so pissed off at their doctors for prescribing them Paxil or other drugs when they shouldn't have, a majority have gone way in the other direction and decided all doctors don't know what they are talking about. This is not only silly but dangerous. Modern medicine while it has many flaws is one of the reasons we are all living past the age of 60, to dismiss dr.s and actual medical studies because some misdiagnose and overprescribe and are under the thumb of pharmaceutical companies does not make any sense.

You can go on the internet and find a website that will tell you whatever you want to hear when it comes to your health, that doesn't mean all of it is wrong, but it is very easy to blame everything on things like Yeast or Toxins. You will also find that the majority of these natural websites are trying to sell you some herbal formula that will "cure" you, all the while "curing you of all the money in your wallet. The supplement indistry in the United States has become very large, and BIG BUSINESS, yet it is completely un-regulated, not that the FDA isn't corrupt, but there is NO ONE watching these herbal supplements, there is no way to tell if they are even putting in the ingredients they claim they are so be careful not to suddenly jump ship from big Pharma and then find yourself an addict of the Supplement GIANT.

There's clearly a place in the middle between blindly following the md's and blindly following the naturopaths holistics etc.. that would be the most beneficial to your health.

So yes, there are serious medical problems that require doctors who studied medicine for years and years and know a lot more than we do about the body.

I would love to make a film that exposes Big Pharma's SSRI practices but that doesn't mean I won't take antibiotics ever again if I have an infection that requires me to, that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

[zappelina]

There is a way to prove candida and other fungus infections but to get results you can trust and get information about the type of infection it has to be done by proper testing in a hospital laboratory. I have had it done five times during this period with the same results every time although the tests were done by two different hospital laboratories. The tests were from my nose and mouth plus stool samples and mucus from my lungs. I have two different fungus infections everywhere - candida albicans and aspergillus and although they did respond to conventional treatment within a couple of weeks they come back as soon as I stop treatment. The drugs have lots of side effects which I did get so I can´t take them. I trust my own immune system will take care of them when it´s able to do so. The labs also analyzed the bacteria contents in the stool samples and I had plenty of lactobacillus, the kind found in the so called probiotics, but I completely lack aerobic bacteria indicating lack of sufficient oxygen/blood supply.

[dar7726]

I seriously can not read this thread today. You believe what you want to Banjodan. The amount of bogus info you are giving out does not do anyone any good here. You are seriously off the mark...and well I'm too exhausted to give a crap.

Darlene

[BanjoDan]

The problem with your tests are that Yeast should be found all over, it is a natural part of our bodies so any test that tells you they exist will be correct, but it doesn't mean you have a problem.

If drugs wouldn't kill the fungus for you what makes you think your immune system will?

Since the bacteria in your stool is not neccesarily indicative to what is in your gut, these tests are not conclusive.

I would say the Paxil did more to make your body less functional than the supposed yeast.

[BanjoDan]

I'm sorry Darlene if you can't read this thread today. I understand if you have decided all your problems are due to this yeast than anyone giving a differing opinion will cause you a lot of distress, but that is not the point I am trying to make.

You call my info bogus, but I have read post after post from you and others about medical information you base on single articles from people with questionable credentials.

People are desperate on this board to find something to make them feel better when they are going through withdrawal, and what you guys provide is some kind of hope that they can be cured "naturally" when in reality time is all it will take. Nobody wants to hear it could take 2 years or more to be fully recovered since well during withdrawal sometimes 2 weeks is more than anyone can imagine going through all of this, so a quick fix of supplements sounds great, but in reality , besides fish oil which is not a quick fix, TIME is the only thing that will help, and in fact all of these supplements may do more harm than good.

It wasn't until I stopped all of this herbal stuff and just let my body heal with proper nutrition and excercise that I began to feel better mentally and physically.

If you go on the website in your signature:

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/reaction.htm

they will agree that all these supplements people are proposing we take will actually hurt recovery. It is irresponsible to recommend these things to people who are looking for any hope that their suffering can be made easier and pretend that what you say is based in scientific fact.

I am sorry if I have caused you stress it wasn't nor is it my intent. I thought it was about time though that someone made a point that gave another opinion about this subject on this site.

I can't help but wonder why it is that the people who seem to take the most "Stuff" are those who are still suffering from withdrawal way past 1 or 2 years? I'm not trying to be a smart-*** or pick a fight, I'm just wondering if anyone has thought about this, as since there has been no studies as to Paxil Withdrawal except for the grand study called Paxil progress, then it would be interesting to find out anecdotally what affects recovery, and I am willing to bet all these supplements do not help.

[zappelina]

Nothing wrong with different opinions but I am inclined to think the truth is somewhere in between these standpoints. It is naive to believe in every self-appointed "doctor" whose articles are found on the internet but it´s equally naive to believe that the MDs are always right. They´re not. And people react differently to all drugs, prescription drugs, herbs, vitamin pills or other supplements. This is also the case in withdrawal from the ADs.

Although it is true that you can have some yeast and still be perfectly OK, overgrowth is bad. Candida albicans isn´t considered very dangerous but when the doctor (real MD, no supplement salesman) found the aspergillus she immediately called the infection clinic and wanted me admitted for it because she said it can be dangerous but there was no bed available at the time so I was put on high dose Diflucan straight away, told to stay in bed and rest and had to go back for new tests after the cure. It was gone then, came back later and gone again after a second Diflucan cure. So some of these infections are not considered harmless by the doctors, BanjoDan.

I don´t believe in all those supplements and I am not taking them but it´s not true that only people who take them have protracted withdrawal, I am almost two years off, still very ill and I´m totally intolerant to all kinds of exercise. It immediately makes everything worse and as long as it is like this I will listen to what my body tells me. I am not saying that this intolerance is due to the yeast because I don´t think that has anything to do with it. Withdrawal can affect a number of systems in your body and if it´s really bad, you´ll be happy if you can get out of bed on the really bad days.

[BanjoDan]

Zap,

I never said no one has a candida infection, in fact I think I said if you had candida you probably wouldn't be able to get out of bed.

My point was Candida seems to be an excuse for what's ailing me at the moment, for lots of people, trust me I've been all over the internet on every fricking candida site talking to people who never get better, have been doing diets and drugs and herbs for years, but still have the so called candida symptoms without thinking hmm maybe it's something else... In my case my doctor The "natural" one told me I had candida when in reality I had "paxil poop out" but since she had never heard of that, all my symptoms couldn't possibly be from Paxil, they must be candida, and since my stool tests said I had an overgrowth then well CONFIRMATION. Of course it wasn't until I had to figure it out for myself that it might be the paxil that I began to get better, all that time putting my body which was going through withdrawal from Paxil through Herbal cleansing HELL.

I'm not saying my doctor neccesarily had an agenda (besides the fact I bought all my supplements from her) but she just didn't know any better which is unfortunate for someone who charges $500 a visit, but well lesson learned.

I just hope that not everyone here jumps on this Candida bandwagon because it explains away a lot of our symptoms, and as it did me, made me feel better that once the toxins are gone I will feel ok.

[dar7726]

These "natural" doctors are really hot right now, but there is NO way to prove you have a yeast overgrowth in your gut. You could have 10 stool samples and each one could tell you a different thing, I know this because I had multiple tests at different labs all over the country and one told me a had candida, another one told me I had tons of good bacteria and another told me I had low good bacteria. All within the same week.

So much for heralding of allopathic medicine. First of all there are good labs and bad labs and good technicians and bad. Just because you are getting differing opinions in no way proves that you can’t prove yeast overgrowth. The same can be true of any diagnostic test.

If you really had candida you wouldn't be able to get out of bed.

This is also not true. You can have yeast/fungal infections and still be able to get out of bed. Come on. A vaginal yeast infection is caused by candida…that certainly would not keep a person in bed. Types of fungi that exist number in the hundreds of thousands. There are at least 400 different species of fungi that can affect human health and cause disease. However, only one mycotoxin (Aflotoxin) from the fungi called Aspergillus is tested in our food supply.

The Mayo Clinic now believes that most chronic sinus infections are caused by fungus. But that only occurred since 1999. Why not until then?
http://www.mayoclinic.org/ent-rst/chronicsinus.html

Fungus is even mentioned in the Bible with strict instructions for those who come in contact with it. Why is it that doctors treat everything with antibiotics? They’ve been treating sinus infections with antibiotics since …. Heck I guess since antibiotics were created in the 1950’s and then in 1999 we find that chronic sinus infections are almost always caused by fungus. Humm.. Guess the docs and the researchers until that time were…WRONG.

So I began eating sugar again ALOT of it, and drinking alcohol again and guess what I haven't felt better.

Yeah…the little buggers are getting what they want. Your feeding them. Doesn’t mean they aren’t taking you down and that they’ll get you in the end. Give it time. Even Paxil users thought they were getting a benefit …until later.

There is also NO way to prove you have "Leaky GUT" or if it even exists.

You say listen to your doctor one minute but now there is no way to prove that Leaky Gut exists. Go to pubmed and enter leaky gut and see if it’s real. It’s also called gut permeability. The wall of the intestines acts as a filter…when toxins irritate and inflame the intestinal wall tiny perforations occur allowing food particles and toxins to escape. This is what causes food allergies.

The idea that Candida can cause 100's of different ilnesses hasn't been proven by anyone.. in fact 99% of the candida information out there has been taken from ONE book by ONE author named William Crook. … His basis for this disease is not based on actual medical studies and since it has been released in the 80's there hasn't been one actual medical study that can prove it's existence.

How about A. V. Constantini. Here’s a bit of his bio.
A.V. Costantini, M.D.,5,14 who presented a paper involving autoimmune diseases, malignancies, atherosclerosis, hyperlipidemias and Gout, is Head of the World Health Organization (WHO), also Collaborating Center for Mycotoxins in Food Division of Clinical Chemistry, Department of Internal Medicine, School of Medicine, Albert Ludwigs University, Freiburg, Germany, and Retired Clinical Professional Faculty, University of California, School of Medicine, San Francisco, California.

Costantini reports the diseases wherein fungal forms of microorganisms have been found. These include the following: atherosclerosis, cancer, AIDS, diabetes mellitus, rheumatoid arthritis, Sjogren's syndrome, systemic lupus erythematosus, gout, Crohn's disease, multiple sclerosis, hyperactivity syndrome, infertility, psoriasis, cirrhosis, Alzheimer's disease, scleroderma (progressive systemic sclerosis), Raynaud's disease, sarcoidosis, kidney stones, amyloidosis, vasculitis, and Cushing's Disease.

Here are some of his books.

http://members.aol.com/jfoverlag/fungalbionics/

Or Elizabeth Moore Landecker who states that yeast/fungi have the ability to alter DNA.

Her book is called the Fundamentals of the Fungi

Book Description
This broad introduction to the field of mycology explores the more dynamic aspects of the fungi — including their morphology, taxonomy, evolution, physiology, ecology, pathological relationships, and commercial utilization. Provides information on the history of mycology as well as applications of molecular biology techniques for the study of fungi. Also covers the role of fungi in degradation of pesticides, food spoilage, biological control utilizing fungi, and fungi as human allergens.

A Practical Guide to Medically Important Fungi and the Diseases They Cause by Alan M. Sugar, Caron A Lyman

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...lance&n=283155

Click on this link to see some of the contents of the book.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0397...3D#reader-link

Or Doug Kaufmann and Dr. Dave Holland. Here are the list of their books on the subject. The Fungus Link, The Germ that Causes Cancer, Infectious Diabetes and more.

http://www.knowthecause.com/store/

[MizzT]

Originally Posted by BanjoDan

Zap,

I never said no one has a candida infection, in fact I think I said if you had candida you probably wouldn't be able to get out of bed.

no offense dan....but you are truly clueless.

"if you have candida you cant get out of bed?????????
do you really think that?
ok....why then do they sell "Monistat" over the counter?
Its a simple women's YEAST fix. I mean that is a typical typical common thing with women. Ive had them a gabillion times over! and there are symptoms that you can physically seeeeeeee without any test or anything.
And yes....the solution to that is balancing the gut with good flora and getting away from dairy and sugar and alcohol.

cant get out of bed because of yeast.......man....if you think that your gf must have played a GOOD one on you!!!! roflmao

[BanjoDan]

you guys make me laugh.. clueless is wat I would call you. You take all these suplements, quote all these books with little to no scinetific data to back them up and call me clueless? Maybe you should wake up and smell the flowers ladies... the two of you act like you know what you are talking about, but let's face it, there are very few people who seem to have suffered from withdrawal as long as you, wonder why? Could it be you ever let your bodies heal and instead have replaced your paxil addictions with supplement addictions? Why is it that in this country we feel we have to TAKE SOMETHING to feel better? It's also surprising why we have the most health problems at the same time. Everyone loves Fish oil and of all the things you guys espouse it is one of the things that has been actually scinetifically proven to help with depression, but in Japan guess what NOONE is depressed and NOONE takes fish oil.. they EAT FISH!!!!!!!!!! get the point? Now I'm sure you'll say there's too muh mercury in fish so we can't do that, and in this case that may be right, but you can get enough vitamins, minerals fiber from REAL FOOD, and guess what it tastes better and costs less than bottles of these precious supplements. Why don't you two try and take NOTHING for a month, just eat right and excercise, I'm guessing you'll feel fine, maybe even better... Insomnia Darlene can be caused by half of these supplemetns you take speicifically too much B vitamins... you quote antidepressantfacts.com in your signature but don't read it, they specificall say to take NOTHING in withdrawalbut good balanced nutrition.

You two do a disservice to the people on this board by telling them to take this and to take that, when in fact the two of you have no clue what effect they will have pn anybody. Even Fish oil can have a negative reaction with people during withdrawal, besides the numerous other things you suggest. Like I said before you feed into this American trait of popping pills so when people are going through withdrawla they hope there is something that will make it more bearable and you serve them up some good 'ole advice which may actually prolong their withdrawal instead of help.

As far as Candida goes, I never said there is not such thing as a yeast infection, nor did I say fungus doesn't cause health problems, but what you guys don't understand is you BLAME fungus for all your problems, sinus, fatigue, depression, etc.. when in reality that's just too easy, just like Paxil isn't a cure all the mythical Candida epedemic is also not a cause-all. These books you have cited don't prove anything.. theorietical articles about what fungus may or may not cause is irrelevant. People who Actual have candida are more than likely HIV patients or those with immunse systems so damaged that Candida is the last of their problems.

I am really sorry for both of you that you won't ever learn and will continue to harm yourselves. It's one thing though to do something to yourself and another thing to brainwash a whole community as you do. I hope or your sake that you will cure yourselves of "Candida" but more likely you will just support the fat cats in the supplement industry and make yourself sicker in the process. And I will continue to eat sugar and drink alcohol and if the little yeasties are feasting on my diet then I say Great have a feast because you belong in my gut along with my High levels of bifid and lactobacillus that are keeping them in check.

I have no longer the patience or the desire to debate with either of you on this subject as it is clearly too earth shattering an idea that you are wrong so here 's to agreeing to disagree.

[Suze]

I really wish when people disagreed with one another that it would be done with a whole lot more respect and courtesy, and a whole lot less vindictiveness. Disagreeing is a GOOD thing. It's how new ideas are created and nurtured. Bashing is just plain bad taste.

[MizzT]

Originally Posted by BanjoDan

I am really sorry for both of you that you won't ever learn and will continue to harm yourselves. It's one thing though to do something to yourself and another thing to brainwash a whole community as you do. \

you seriously need to relax, dan.

brainwash???

puhlease.
are you saying people cant google info themselves?
im not harming myself....im not sure how you reach that perception....but its yours and you have a right to it.
Im actually quite happy with my regimen and it works and i know i get much worse when i miss my nutrients.
I know how many people have been helped by my chiropractor finding the connection to SSRIs depleting magnesium...and if you feel differently i would suggest you take a poll and see for yourself.
as for fish oil...scientific studies showing proof of how much it helps depression and many types of mental dis-ease....so....again...take a poll...or dont. It seems to help far more than it harms......so why ***** about it?

its nutrients. sometimes the form they come in looks quite like the paxil pill....so i see your confusion.

frankly....id rather support the organic food and nutrient industry than the chemical industry.


Ill point out that you fail to address the point YOU made that a yeast infection will make you unable to get out of bed.....and that again....take a poll of women who have had yeast infections and done all sorts of stuff. I guess maybe your gf did burn you and say she was too ill to get out of bed or something equally silly. oh well.

it IS difficult to debate against facts. I can understand your frustration.