Conclusion for the CD

Charlie · 03-20-2006, 11:08 AM

This is what I put together as the last bit of dialogue for the CD. please read it and let me know what you think. Please be completely honest, I am already aware that I'm not the most gifted writer in the world and there are some very gifted people here and I'm asking for your help.

Conclusion
It seems obvious to me having gone through hundreds of articles on the cause of mental illness and the psychotropic medications used to treat these illnesses that nobody knows for sure. At best we theorize and treat the theoretical cause.

Let’s take a look at depression and the pharmacological treatments most commonly used to treat this condition.

Prozac - SSRI from Ely Lilly Excerpt from the Prozac web page
Depression is not fully understood, but a growing amount of evidence supports the view that people with depression have an imbalance of the brain's neurotransmitters, the chemicals that allow nerve cells in the brain to communicate with each other. Many scientists believe that an imbalance in serotonin, one of these neurotransmitters, may be an important factor in the development and severity of depression.

PROZAC may help to correct this imbalance by increasing the brain's own supply of serotonin.

Some other antidepressant medicines appear to affect several neurotransmitters in addition to serotonin. PROZAC selectively affects only serotonin.

Cymbalta – SNRI from Ely Lilly Excerpt from the Cymbalta web page
The Science Behind Depression
Many researchers believe depression is caused by an imbalance of naturally occurring chemicals, serotonin and norepinephrine, in the brain and the body. In the brain, these two chemicals are thought to be associated with mood. These same chemicals are also thought to be associated with regulating and reducing feelings of pain that come from the body.

Paxil – SSRI from GlaxoSmithKleine Excerpt from the Paxil web page

With continued treatment, Paxil can help restore the balance of serotonin (a naturally occurring brain chemical) -- which helps reduce the symptoms of anxiety and depression. Depression, GAD, social anxiety disorder, panic disorder, OCD and PTSD can occur separately. However, many people
have an overlap of these conditions.(12) The good news is Paxil is the first medication in the class of
antidepressants known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) approved by the FDA to treat all these conditions.

Welbutrin – From GlaxoSmithKleine Not an SSRI or SNRI Excerpt from the Welbutrin web page

How WELLBUTRIN XL Works
Research suggests that depression may be caused by an imbalance of brain chemicals called neurotransmitters. Scientists believe that WELLBUTRIN XL helps balance the levels of two of these neurotransmitters called dopamine and norepinepherine.

Effexor XR – SNRI from Wyeth Excerpt from the Effexor web page

How does EFFEXOR XR work? EFFEXOR XR is thought to work by affecting 2 naturally occurring brain chemicals, serotonin and norepinephrine. This helps relieve your symptoms. It may take several weeks for your symptoms to get better with EFFEXOR XR

What we have is 5 antidepressants from 3 leading manufacturers that target 3 different neurotransmitters either individually or together. Is it Serotonin? Is it Dopamine and norepinepherine? Is it serotonin and norepinephrine. Who knows? It’s obvious from the different products that based on scientific evidence the manufacturers aren’t in agreement. They’re not even in agreement within the same company. How can we as a public have any faith that what they say is true? These are questions you’ll need to sort out for yourself but it seems rather obvious to me that it has a lot more with money than it does with science.

Picture of a money bag here

We know from our review that there is little evidence that SSRI’s and SNRI’s are the wonder drugs they are reported to be. In fact, adverse side effects may be the only thing we can really count on when taking these medications.

Risk VS Benefit
The evidence clearly shows that a completely inert placebo achieves almost as much benefit as does the active medication.

Some of the Risks
1. Withdrawal – They prefer discontinuation syndrome
2. Increased risk of suicidal thinking and actions
3. Akathisia – An almost indescribable inner restlessness that can get to the point it can cause aggressive behavior.
4. Loss of inhibition – The erosion of the guidelines by which a person lives.The barrier between thinking something inappropriate and doing something inappropriate.
5. RBD – The state when you are technically asleep but moving about and doing things as though you are awake. A state when a person can act out a dream.
6. Promiscuity – Alterations in people that cause them to freely engage in uncharacteristically unsafe sexual behavior.
7. Emotional Blunting – losing the ability to feel empathy or compassion for others. Not caring what happens around you and losing the interest in or passion for things you enjoy
8. Sexual Dysfunction
9. Dangers to the fetus in conception and during pregnancy
10. Homicidal ideation
11. Mania
12. Psychosis
13. Anxiety
14. Actions leading to improper Bipolar Diagnosis
15. Nausea
16. Sweating
17. Cardiovascular problems
18. Confusion
19. Fatigue
20. Depersonalization
21. Pseudo Parkinsonism

This is only a partial list but the bottom line is these dugs can change how you act, how you think, what your
Interest’s are. Virtually anything that makes you a responsible, loving, compassionate functioning member
of the human race. It has been demonstrated that they can cause you to kill yourself or others.

What behaviors or emotion is off limits?

Healing · 03-20-2006, 11:24 AM

Thanks so much for doing this, Charlie! You've put A LOT of work into this.

scotty · 03-20-2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie

3. Akathisia – An almost indescribable inner restlessness that can get to the point it can cause aggressive behavior.

9. Dangers to the fetus in conception and during pregnancy

Charlie with #3 I would add a bit.
Akathisia – An almost indescribable inner restlessness that can lead to aggressive behavior, suicidal thoughts and actions.

#9

Heart and lung abnormalities for fetus exposed in 1st trimester and potential withdrawal for infant exposed in the third trimester.

Just a little more specific on the fetal problems since these are new and little known to the public.

Charlie · 03-20-2006, 05:55 PM

Changed Akathisia and this is the new Pregnancy

Pregnancy - elevation in the levels of sperm chromatin if the father is on an SSRI at the time of conception increasing the chance of miscarriage and childhood cancer as well as potential damage to the Heart and lung abnormalities for fetus exposed in 1st trimester and potential withdrawal for infants exposed in the third trimester.

Thanks

scotty · 03-20-2006, 05:58 PM

Excellent!!!

Katesmom · 03-20-2006, 09:21 PM

Actually, I believe the study on the lung abnormalities in fetuses were from use in the last half of pregnancy, not the first trimester.

scotty · 03-20-2006, 11:09 PM

" University of California San Diego School of Medicine study, published in the February 9, 2006 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, found an increased risk of persistent pulmonary hypertension (PPHN) in newborns of mothers who used certain commonly prescribed antidepressants in late pregnancy."

I wasn't sure so I looked it up again.

Charlie · 03-21-2006, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie

Changed Akathisia and this is the new Pregnancy

Pregnancy - elevation in the levels of sperm chromatin if the father is on an SSRI at the time of conception increasing the chance of miscarriage and childhood cancer as well as potential damage to the Heart and lung abnormalities for fetus exposed in 1st trimester and potential withdrawal for infants exposed in the third trimester.

Thanks

Pregnancy - elevation in the levels of sperm chromatin if the father is on an SSRI at the time of conception increasing the chance of miscarriage and childhood cancer as well as potential damage to the Heart and lung abnormalities and potential withdrawal for infants exposed during pregnancy

I have 2 or 3 articles so I made it a bit more generic.

zappelina · 03-29-2006, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie

Pregnancy - elevation in the levels of sperm chromatin if the father is on an SSRI at the time of conception increasing the chance of miscarriage and childhood cancer as well as potential damage to the Heart and lung abnormalities and potential withdrawal for infants exposed during pregnancy

I have 2 or 3 articles so I made it a bit more generic.

I don´t know if I´m right or if it´s a question of language barrier but shouldn´t "chance" be "risk". Chance sounds like something positive. Am I right or wrong?

dar7726 · 03-29-2006, 05:38 AM

Charlie...as I'm reading, these two sentences seem a bit unclear to me. The first one makes me wonder..."knows what for sure"?

Quote:

It seems obvious to me having gone through hundreds of articles on the cause of mental illness and the psychotropic medications used to treat these illnesses that nobody knows for sure.

This one, it seems has a couple of words missing. "to do" with money....

Quote:

These are questions you’ll need to sort out for yourself but it seems rather obvious to me that it has a lot more with money than it does with science.

Charlie · 03-29-2006, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zappelina

I don´t know if I´m right or if it´s a question of language barrier but shouldn´t "chance" be "risk". Chance sounds like something positive. Am I right or wrong?

You are absolutely right, thank you

Charlie · 03-29-2006, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dar7726

Charlie...as I'm reading, these two sentences seem a bit unclear to me. The first one makes me wonder..."knows what for sure"?

This one, it seems has a couple of words missing. "to do" with money....

Thanks Dar, I do this sometimes and don't realize it. I'll make the changes.

dar7726 · 03-29-2006, 09:13 AM

I do too Charlie. Our fingers can sometimes work faster than the rest of us. Everything else looks Great!

Darlene

rdjanis · 03-29-2006, 09:16 AM

You have done a great job Charlie!!

Charlie · 03-29-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zappelina

I don´t know if I´m right or if it´s a question of language barrier but shouldn´t "chance" be "risk". Chance sounds like something positive. Am I right or wrong?

Hej Zappelina
Tack upplysningsvis (thank you for your guidance?)

You are right and I hope I said what I think I said.

scotty · 03-29-2006, 06:38 PM

When I was Norway, all I could say was "thanks for the meal" and Hot dog!!

Lilly · 03-29-2006, 07:49 PM

Wow Charlie!

I had not seen these. It's great and you are doing a great job!

Lilly

zappelina · 03-30-2006, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie

Hej Zappelina
Tack upplysningsvis (thank you for your guidance?)

You are right and I hope I said what I think I said.

And thank you for doing a good job with the CD, Charlie! You didn´t get the Swedish quite right. "Upplysningsvis" means roughly "informationwise " but I undersood perfectly well what you meant and the rest of it is correct. Guess we´ll see my favourite PP thread "humour for the day" on the Swedish drug discussion board soon, eh?

ZoloPolo · 04-02-2006, 06:46 PM

Helle Zappelina..is "your humor board) here in Sweden, this with the two big boy's? Who don't realy lie each other

I visit this place to sometimes..and it's a realy fun board to read

Hej från... Bye from
ZoloPolo

sherijo · 04-03-2006, 09:44 PM

Hey Charlie,
I just wanted to say how impressed I am with this.. and how much I appreciate all of your hard work on this project!

Much love to you charlie,
sheri

Leslee · 04-07-2006, 02:44 AM

Hi Charlie This is really good! I like how you have used the drug companies own words to illustrate how silly the whole imbalance theory is. I never thought of the fact that they are conflicting with one another. Do you mind if I use your words?

Here are 2 minor things I noticed.

It seems obvious to me{,} having gone (I am not 100% sure about the comma but I think it’s needed here.)

These are questions you’ll need to sort out for yourself but it seems rather obvious to me that it has a lot more {to do} with money than it does with science.

(You might include activation of extreme manic episodes in bipolar people.)

__________________________________________________________

This is one I hadn’t heard of. If you have the time, can you tell me where to find more info on this?
6. Promiscuity – Alterations in people that cause them to freely engage in uncharacteristically unsafe sexual behavior.

Leslee

03-20-2006, 11:08 AM	#1
Charlie Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 7,561	Conclusion for the CD This is what I put together as the last bit of dialogue for the CD. please read it and let me know what you think. Please be completely honest, I am already aware that I'm not the most gifted writer in the world and there are some very gifted people here and I'm asking for your help. Conclusion It seems obvious to me having gone through hundreds of articles on the cause of mental illness and the psychotropic medications used to treat these illnesses that nobody knows for sure. At best we theorize and treat the theoretical cause. Let’s take a look at depression and the pharmacological treatments most commonly used to treat this condition. Prozac - SSRI from Ely Lilly Excerpt from the Prozac web page Depression is not fully understood, but a growing amount of evidence supports the view that people with depression have an imbalance of the brain's neurotransmitters, the chemicals that allow nerve cells in the brain to communicate with each other. Many scientists believe that an imbalance in serotonin, one of these neurotransmitters, may be an important factor in the development and severity of depression. PROZAC may help to correct this imbalance by increasing the brain's own supply of serotonin. Some other antidepressant medicines appear to affect several neurotransmitters in addition to serotonin. PROZAC selectively affects only serotonin. Cymbalta – SNRI from Ely Lilly Excerpt from the Cymbalta web page The Science Behind Depression Many researchers believe depression is caused by an imbalance of naturally occurring chemicals, serotonin and norepinephrine, in the brain and the body. In the brain, these two chemicals are thought to be associated with mood. These same chemicals are also thought to be associated with regulating and reducing feelings of pain that come from the body. Paxil – SSRI from GlaxoSmithKleine Excerpt from the Paxil web page With continued treatment, Paxil can help restore the balance of serotonin (a naturally occurring brain chemical) -- which helps reduce the symptoms of anxiety and depression. Depression, GAD, social anxiety disorder, panic disorder, OCD and PTSD can occur separately. However, many people have an overlap of these conditions.(12) The good news is Paxil is the first medication in the class of antidepressants known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) approved by the FDA to treat all these conditions. Welbutrin – From GlaxoSmithKleine Not an SSRI or SNRI Excerpt from the Welbutrin web page How WELLBUTRIN XL Works Research suggests that depression may be caused by an imbalance of brain chemicals called neurotransmitters. Scientists believe that WELLBUTRIN XL helps balance the levels of two of these neurotransmitters called dopamine and norepinepherine. Effexor XR – SNRI from Wyeth Excerpt from the Effexor web page How does EFFEXOR XR work? EFFEXOR XR is thought to work by affecting 2 naturally occurring brain chemicals, serotonin and norepinephrine. This helps relieve your symptoms. It may take several weeks for your symptoms to get better with EFFEXOR XR What we have is 5 antidepressants from 3 leading manufacturers that target 3 different neurotransmitters either individually or together. Is it Serotonin? Is it Dopamine and norepinepherine? Is it serotonin and norepinephrine. Who knows? It’s obvious from the different products that based on scientific evidence the manufacturers aren’t in agreement. They’re not even in agreement within the same company. How can we as a public have any faith that what they say is true? These are questions you’ll need to sort out for yourself but it seems rather obvious to me that it has a lot more with money than it does with science. Picture of a money bag here We know from our review that there is little evidence that SSRI’s and SNRI’s are the wonder drugs they are reported to be. In fact, adverse side effects may be the only thing we can really count on when taking these medications. Risk VS Benefit The evidence clearly shows that a completely inert placebo achieves almost as much benefit as does the active medication. Some of the Risks 1. Withdrawal – They prefer discontinuation syndrome 2. Increased risk of suicidal thinking and actions 3. Akathisia – An almost indescribable inner restlessness that can get to the point it can cause aggressive behavior. 4. Loss of inhibition – The erosion of the guidelines by which a person lives.The barrier between thinking something inappropriate and doing something inappropriate. 5. RBD – The state when you are technically asleep but moving about and doing things as though you are awake. A state when a person can act out a dream. 6. Promiscuity – Alterations in people that cause them to freely engage in uncharacteristically unsafe sexual behavior. 7. Emotional Blunting – losing the ability to feel empathy or compassion for others. Not caring what happens around you and losing the interest in or passion for things you enjoy 8. Sexual Dysfunction 9. Dangers to the fetus in conception and during pregnancy 10. Homicidal ideation 11. Mania 12. Psychosis 13. Anxiety 14. Actions leading to improper Bipolar Diagnosis 15. Nausea 16. Sweating 17. Cardiovascular problems 18. Confusion 19. Fatigue 20. Depersonalization 21. Pseudo Parkinsonism This is only a partial list but the bottom line is these dugs can change how you act, how you think, what your Interest’s are. Virtually anything that makes you a responsible, loving, compassionate functioning member of the human race. It has been demonstrated that they can cause you to kill yourself or others. What behaviors or emotion is off limits? __________________ The truth is the truth even if no one believes it, and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it." Knowledge speaks ....... Wisdom listens Charlie www.ThePaxilProtest.com

03-20-2006, 11:24 AM	#2
Healing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 736	Re: Conclusion for the CD Thanks so much for doing this, Charlie! You've put A LOT of work into this. __________________ 1996-97 - Paxil x 9 months, tapered, suffered 8 months withdrawal but didn't know it was withdrawal, so... 1998-2001 - Zoloft, tapered, again unwittingly went into withdrawal, so... 2002-03 - Paxil x 20 months, developed severe headaches, so... Sep 03 - May 05 - Paxil wean took 20 months, severe physical, moderate psychological symptoms Sep 03 - Jun 05 - took Prozac to help with Paxil wean - not recommended Jul 05 to date - post-taper, severe psychological, moderate physical symptoms

03-20-2006, 05:55 PM	#4
Charlie Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 7,561	Re: Conclusion for the CD Changed Akathisia and this is the new Pregnancy Pregnancy - elevation in the levels of sperm chromatin if the father is on an SSRI at the time of conception increasing the chance of miscarriage and childhood cancer as well as potential damage to the Heart and lung abnormalities for fetus exposed in 1st trimester and potential withdrawal for infants exposed in the third trimester. Thanks __________________ The truth is the truth even if no one believes it, and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it." Knowledge speaks ....... Wisdom listens Charlie www.ThePaxilProtest.com

03-20-2006, 05:58 PM	#5
scotty Administrator & Advocate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: new jersey Posts: 38,590	Re: Conclusion for the CD Excellent!!! __________________ AKA Laurie "If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere." ~Frank A. Clark

03-20-2006, 09:21 PM	#6
Katesmom Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 13,706	Re: Conclusion for the CD Actually, I believe the study on the lung abnormalities in fetuses were from use in the last half of pregnancy, not the first trimester. __________________ Katesmom aka Kim started Paxil Oct. 2003 for PIH Paxil free since 19 Jul 2005 ". . .the cruelest lies are often told without a word. . .the kindest truths are often spoken, never heard." -- Ben Folds

03-20-2006, 11:09 PM	#7
scotty Administrator & Advocate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: new jersey Posts: 38,590	Re: Conclusion for the CD " University of California San Diego School of Medicine study, published in the February 9, 2006 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, found an increased risk of persistent pulmonary hypertension (PPHN) in newborns of mothers who used certain commonly prescribed antidepressants in late pregnancy." I wasn't sure so I looked it up again. __________________ AKA Laurie "If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere." ~Frank A. Clark

03-29-2006, 09:13 AM	#13
dar7726 Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,488	Re: Conclusion for the CD I do too Charlie. Our fingers can sometimes work faster than the rest of us. Everything else looks Great! Darlene

03-29-2006, 09:16 AM	#14
rdjanis "has a lavender scented keyboard" Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ontario Posts: 22,238	Re: Conclusion for the CD You have done a great job Charlie!! __________________ Rita

03-29-2006, 06:38 PM	#16
scotty Administrator & Advocate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: new jersey Posts: 38,590	Re: Conclusion for the CD When I was Norway, all I could say was "thanks for the meal" and Hot dog!! __________________ AKA Laurie "If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere." ~Frank A. Clark

03-29-2006, 07:49 PM	#17
Lilly Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northwest Posts: 7,167	Re: Conclusion for the CD Wow Charlie! I had not seen these. It's great and you are doing a great job! Lilly __________________ 1 .5 Xanax a day for one month. C/T. Same year, 3 .5 mil Xanax a day, 4 by the end. Pooped out on me. 1 1/2 years on the drug. Doctors taper. Very bad w/d. 9 months later took 10 mg Paxil and my Xanax w/d dissapeared. On 20 mg by end. Pooped out on me. C/T then restarted it again after 3 days and big blow up. 6 months taper, never feeling much better. 2 1/2 years solid w/d then sporadic stuff for 5 years. Completely recovered! Drug free since June 2001.

04-02-2006, 06:46 PM	#19
ZoloPolo Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sweden-Gothenburg Posts: 68	Re: Conclusion for the CD Helle Zappelina..is "your humor board) here in Sweden, this with the two big boy's? Who don't realy lie each other I visit this place to sometimes..and it's a realy fun board to read Hej från... Bye from ZoloPolo __________________ *Stopped CT Zoloft (Still waiting to be recovered)

04-03-2006, 09:44 PM	#20
sherijo Banned Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: chicago, illinois Posts: 1,358	Re: Conclusion for the CD Hey Charlie, I just wanted to say how impressed I am with this.. and how much I appreciate all of your hard work on this project! Much love to you charlie, sheri

04-07-2006, 02:44 AM	#21
Leslee Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 13	Re: Conclusion for the CD Hi Charlie This is really good! I like how you have used the drug companies own words to illustrate how silly the whole imbalance theory is. I never thought of the fact that they are conflicting with one another. Do you mind if I use your words? Here are 2 minor things I noticed. It seems obvious to me{,} having gone (I am not 100% sure about the comma but I think it’s needed here.) These are questions you’ll need to sort out for yourself but it seems rather obvious to me that it has a lot more {to do} with money than it does with science. (You might include activation of extreme manic episodes in bipolar people.) __________________________________________________________ This is one I hadn’t heard of. If you have the time, can you tell me where to find more info on this? 6. Promiscuity – Alterations in people that cause them to freely engage in uncharacteristically unsafe sexual behavior. Leslee

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