Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering

palm · 07-01-2009, 03:32 AM

Hi,

The insomnia I previously experienced has returned. I will sleep one night and not the next.

Unlike the previous situation, where I feel it was due to taking to many supplements, I am not sure that is the case this time. I think the Doxepin that in the past was sedating is now having a reverse reaction.

For example, last night, I felt very tired in getting ready for bed. I actually had a hard time staying awake after dinner but didn't fall asleep beforehand which would have interfered with sleep.

As soon as I took the Doxepin, I felt completely wired and needed valerian type sleep aids to at least give me some sleep. But they never completely work.

I know that 3.5mg is a little high for a jumping off point so I am thinking I should taper again.

Is this common for sleep meds to have a paradoxical reaction as you get lower with the dose?

I am finding this obviously very discouraging.

Palm

anjillian · 07-01-2009, 03:41 AM

Have you tried melatonin? I read online that it can actually help with weaning off sleep medications. Give it a few days and see what happens.

palm · 07-01-2009, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anjillian

Have you tried melatonin? I read online that it can actually help with weaning off sleep medications. Give it a few days and see what happens.

Hi,

Thanks for responding.

Unfortunately, when I tried a very low dose six months ago, .5mg, it caused suicidal ideation so I am reluctant to try it again.

Palm

BlueEyes · 07-01-2009, 08:02 AM

I wish I had advice for you - unfortunately, I will go through weeks with no problems with sleeping only to have a 'wave' of insomnia hit me all over again. As a matter of fact, my most recent wave of insomnia hit me 3 days ago and is still going strong....

I tend to just grasp at straws with how to deal with it. Sleepytime tea, herbal/homeopathic stuff, melatonin, Bach's Rescue Remedy....between some/all of them, I can usually get maybe 4-5 hours of sleep (in total - generally broken up) which can at least get me through a day of work.

That being said, I still get lightheaded and dizzy when I don't get enough sleep so....

I'm not sure what Doxepin (?) actually is so can't give you any comments on that.

Terri

westeewoman · 07-01-2009, 08:19 AM

Palm - I have no advice but I'm sorry to see that you're losing sleep again!

Hugs from Massachusetts

texgirl · 07-01-2009, 08:43 AM

When I had withdrawal insomnia I tried all the things BlueEyes mentions, with varying degrees of success. The thing that helped me most was a guided imagery CD called "Healthful Sleep" that I ordered online from a company called HealthJourneys.

palm · 07-01-2009, 04:40 PM

Hi,

Thank you all for responding.

Blue Eyes - I am so sorry you are experiencing insomnia also. It really stinks doesn't it?

Doxepin is a tricyclic antidepressant that is used for sleep. When Remeron quit being effective for sleep in 2006, it was added to my then 3 med cocktail.

Westweewoman - Thanks for your support.

Tex Girl - Thanks for the suggestion on the guided imagery CD. I have a sleep musical CD that normally is effective. Unfortunately, when my body is wired, it doesn't do any good and I suspect the same would happen with the guided imagery CD.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like the yes but person as I really appreciate the fact you took the time to respond.

Palm

LCrawford67 · 07-01-2009, 04:41 PM

I don't have any great advice, Palm, but I do find it curious as soon as you took the Doxepin, you were wired.

palm · 07-01-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCrawford67

I don't have any great advice, Palm, but I do find it curious as soon as you took the Doxepin, you were wired.

Hi LC,

I decided to make a cut. I am too tired to change my signature but the drop will be to 3.2 which is an 8% cut. Prior to the insomnia hitting, I was doing pretty well withdrawal wise.

I am thinking I am developing tolerance but of course, who really knows.

Palm

Songbird · 07-01-2009, 07:46 PM

It does sound like a paradoxical reaction. Let us know how you get on with the dose cut.

Interesting about the sleep CD texgirl mentioned. I had good success last year with a CD called "Achieving Perfect Sleep", it allowed me to sleep when I had such severe insomnia I hadn't slept for a week.

palm · 07-03-2009, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Songbird

It does sound like a paradoxical reaction. Let us know how you get on with the dose cut.

Interesting about the sleep CD texgirl mentioned. I had good success last year with a CD called "Achieving Perfect Sleep", it allowed me to sleep when I had such severe insomnia I hadn't slept for a week.

Hi Songbird,

Since I have made the cut, I have slept 2 nights in a row so it does look like my body wants this drug out of my system.

Of course, I woke up a million times last night but as long as I can get back to sleep, I am ok with that.

The only bad thing is my withdrawal symptoms have intensified greatly so I am going to see if I can get away with a 5% cut the next go around.

Palm

Betsy · 07-03-2009, 04:43 PM

Sorry you are feeling yucky.....I feel for you and wish I knew what would help.
What a pain....sorry... I've had a week of not so good sleeping....it's the worst....I have had MUCH worse not sleeping though. These have been just waking at very early times but a few hours like 3:15 am, but later I could take a nap. It hasn't been WILD not sleeping I used to get, occasionally. Some of the nights this past week I was having the weird wake up and not know where I was things happening. That happens occasionally....I don't know what it will be like for me when I am at the dose you are at. I just have to keep faith and keep going. Take care.
Betsy

palm · 07-04-2009, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betsy

Sorry you are feeling yucky.....I feel for you and wish I knew what would help.
What a pain....sorry... I've had a week of not so good sleeping....it's the worst....I have had MUCH worse not sleeping though. These have been just waking at very early times but a few hours like 3:15 am, but later I could take a nap. It hasn't been WILD not sleeping I used to get, occasionally. Some of the nights this past week I was having the weird wake up and not know where I was things happening. That happens occasionally....I don't know what it will be like for me when I am at the dose you are at. I just have to keep faith and keep going. Take care.
Betsy

Hi Betsy,

Thanks!

I spoke too soon as the insomnia returned last night. This makes me think it is the supplements I am taking which stinks because they help me function. It seems the lower I go in my dose, the more sensitive I am becoming.

I am sorry you are experiencing problems. It does stink to high heaven.

Funny you mention not knowing what it will be like at the dose I am at. I worry what it will be like when I am off the med and what my sleep will be like.

But like you said, we have to keep the faith.

Palm

07-01-2009, 03:32 AM	#1
palm Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,297	Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering Hi, The insomnia I previously experienced has returned. I will sleep one night and not the next. Unlike the previous situation, where I feel it was due to taking to many supplements, I am not sure that is the case this time. I think the Doxepin that in the past was sedating is now having a reverse reaction. For example, last night, I felt very tired in getting ready for bed. I actually had a hard time staying awake after dinner but didn't fall asleep beforehand which would have interfered with sleep. As soon as I took the Doxepin, I felt completely wired and needed valerian type sleep aids to at least give me some sleep. But they never completely work. I know that 3.5mg is a little high for a jumping off point so I am thinking I should taper again. Is this common for sleep meds to have a paradoxical reaction as you get lower with the dose? I am finding this obviously very discouraging. Palm __________________ 8/06 - Started tapering off of a cocktail of meds that included Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin. Side effects include a hearing loss, tinnitus and worsening of LD issues. Down to tapering the last med, Doxepin 8/24/09 - Rebound insomnia from tapering Doxepin has severely worsened. Increased from 3.7 to 4.10mg. 10/28/09 - 4.03

07-01-2009, 03:41 AM	#2
anjillian Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 934	Re: Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering Have you tried melatonin? I read online that it can actually help with weaning off sleep medications. Give it a few days and see what happens.

07-01-2009, 08:02 AM	#4
BlueEyes Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern New Jersey Posts: 715	Re: Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering I wish I had advice for you - unfortunately, I will go through weeks with no problems with sleeping only to have a 'wave' of insomnia hit me all over again. As a matter of fact, my most recent wave of insomnia hit me 3 days ago and is still going strong.... I tend to just grasp at straws with how to deal with it. Sleepytime tea, herbal/homeopathic stuff, melatonin, Bach's Rescue Remedy....between some/all of them, I can usually get maybe 4-5 hours of sleep (in total - generally broken up) which can at least get me through a day of work. That being said, I still get lightheaded and dizzy when I don't get enough sleep so.... I'm not sure what Doxepin (?) actually is so can't give you any comments on that. Terri __________________ On Prozac/Trazodone since 1991 Tried unsuccessfully to come off it "the doctor's way" 3 separate time. Weaned myself off Trazodone 2006 Started off at 25 mg of Prozac in 2006 Slow my own slow wean of 1 mg every 4-6 weeks From 2008 - Dec 21, 2008 - 3.5 mg Jan 27, 2009 - 3 mg; Feb 23, 2009 - 2.5 mg March 25, 2009 - 2 mg; April 21, 2009 - 1.5 mg June 6, 2009 - 1 mg; July 14, 2009 - 0.5 mg LAST DAY OF PROZAC - August 13, 2009!!!!

07-01-2009, 08:19 AM	#5
westeewoman Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 945	Re: Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering Palm - I have no advice but I'm sorry to see that you're losing sleep again! Hugs from Massachusetts __________________ [size="1"]Paxil 1993-1998 poop-out/ct Celexa 1998-2005 poop-out/ct Cymbalta 60 mg July, 2005 last propranolol 15 mg/day April 6, 2007 last Serax 10 mg/day April 6, 2007 Cymbalta 60 mg 8/23/07 to 50.5 mg on 2/24/08 in six drops Cymbalta 49.0mg 3/26/2008 to 40mg 2/6/2009 in nine drops Cymbalta 38.5mg 4/15/2009 Cymbalta 36.0 5/15/2009 Cymbalta 35.6. 9/15/2009[ Cymbalta 35.0 10/15/2009 /SIZE]

07-01-2009, 08:43 AM	#6
texgirl The original" F$%^you "gal, from the cranky corner! Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,977	Re: Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering When I had withdrawal insomnia I tried all the things BlueEyes mentions, with varying degrees of success. The thing that helped me most was a guided imagery CD called "Healthful Sleep" that I ordered online from a company called HealthJourneys. __________________ Completely free from psychiatry since 8/5/07 If we are fools enough to remain at the mercy of the people who want to sell us happiness, it will be impossible for us to ever be content with anything. How would they profit if we became content? (Thomas Merton)

07-01-2009, 04:40 PM	#7
palm Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,297	Re: Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering Hi, Thank you all for responding. Blue Eyes - I am so sorry you are experiencing insomnia also. It really stinks doesn't it? Doxepin is a tricyclic antidepressant that is used for sleep. When Remeron quit being effective for sleep in 2006, it was added to my then 3 med cocktail. Westweewoman - Thanks for your support. Tex Girl - Thanks for the suggestion on the guided imagery CD. I have a sleep musical CD that normally is effective. Unfortunately, when my body is wired, it doesn't do any good and I suspect the same would happen with the guided imagery CD. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like the yes but person as I really appreciate the fact you took the time to respond. Palm __________________ 8/06 - Started tapering off of a cocktail of meds that included Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin. Side effects include a hearing loss, tinnitus and worsening of LD issues. Down to tapering the last med, Doxepin 8/24/09 - Rebound insomnia from tapering Doxepin has severely worsened. Increased from 3.7 to 4.10mg. 10/28/09 - 4.03

07-01-2009, 04:41 PM	#8
LCrawford67 Moderator "Everybody poops" Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 26,492	Re: Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering I don't have any great advice, Palm, but I do find it curious as soon as you took the Doxepin, you were wired. __________________ aka LC aka Laurie C. Paxil, 20 mg since 1997, for IBS Two unsuccessful attempts to quit. Started tapering 11/27/06 PAXIL FREE 12/29/07 If the only prayer you said in your whole life was, "thank you," that would suffice. ~Meister Eckhart Thanksgiving, man. Not a good day to be my pants. ~Kevin James

07-01-2009, 07:46 PM	#10
Songbird Join Date: May 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 7,046	Re: Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering It does sound like a paradoxical reaction. Let us know how you get on with the dose cut. Interesting about the sleep CD texgirl mentioned. I had good success last year with a CD called "Achieving Perfect Sleep", it allowed me to sleep when I had such severe insomnia I hadn't slept for a week. __________________ Jul 01-Feb 02 Aropax Feb - Dec 03 Citalopram Jul 04 Aropax Jan 07 - Feb 08 20mg - 5mg Apr 4.5mg 5mg Jun 10mg zopiclone > seroquel Jul 20mg Aug + methionine Oct aropax > loxamine Dec off seroquel 7 Dec 17.5mg 30 Dec 15mg 24 Jan 12.5mg 16 Feb 10mg 10 May 9mg 30 May 8mg 5 July 7.5mg 2 Aug 7.25mg 1 Sep 7mg 9 Oct 6.75mg 8 Nov 6.5mg Appreciation is the antidote to stress - Trust is the antidote to fear

07-03-2009, 04:43 PM	#12
Betsy Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,832	Re: Insomnia has returned/Advice on tapering Sorry you are feeling yucky.....I feel for you and wish I knew what would help. What a pain....sorry... I've had a week of not so good sleeping....it's the worst....I have had MUCH worse not sleeping though. These have been just waking at very early times but a few hours like 3:15 am, but later I could take a nap. It hasn't been WILD not sleeping I used to get, occasionally. Some of the nights this past week I was having the weird wake up and not know where I was things happening. That happens occasionally....I don't know what it will be like for me when I am at the dose you are at. I just have to keep faith and keep going. Take care. Betsy __________________ Started at 30mgs 1997 1999 - 2004 tapered 25 to 12.5 Nov'05 10 mgs. Dec'05 tried liquid/BIG mess for me Jan'06 up to 15 mg. Mar'06 - Mar'07 15 mg to 10 mgs in tiny tapers every 6+ weeks Mar 07 - Mar 08 10 mgs to 7.5 tiny tapers w/digital scale Sep 08 - 7mgs April 09 - approx 6.25 mgs "SLOW AND STEADY WINS THE RACE" ~ The Tortoise

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