Copper Toxicity

[SareBare]

I had a blood test the other day done by my GP who is into natural health and
it came back that i have really excessive levels of copper in my blood.
She is not sure why because i dont have copper pipes in my house and dont consume alot of copper containing foods etc.
she said it is a big concern because copper is carcinogenic among many other things and will make tapering from paxil alot more difficult?
the doctor wants to do Intravenous Vitamin C, but im reluctant due to my hypersisitivity to pretty much anything.

does anyone else have this? is this anthing to do with 10 years use of paxil? my doctor suggested because i have been on it for so many years my liver does not work properly and cannot filter through toxins and so the copper cannot be excreted and just builds up?? im pretty worried and stressed about it. i dont really need this with everything else going on

[scotty]

One quick google and this "phenomenon" is only listed on "natural" websites...who are also selling the "cure" for it.

How did she test for it? What were the numbers? I wouldn't jump to taking anything IV that I didn't confirm through a second source.

[TryingtoGetWell]

Hi Sarah!

Would it be possible to get a re-test done by another lab, just to make sure results are accurate? A hospital lab, perhaps?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by TryingtoGetWell

Hi Sarah!

Would it be possible to get a re-test done by another lab, just to make sure results are accurate? A hospital lab, perhaps?

This is what I'm getting at. I have NEVER seen a case of copper toxicity in 25 years of nursing, so I'm extremely skeptical of this.

[Light]

I'd repeat the tests (blood and urine) and ask the doctor to rule out Wilson's Disease.

[scotty]

Wilsons is usually diagnosed in young children and probably would have shown signs prior to now.

FYI...Wilsons is a genetic disorder. Sarahs symptoms don't sound like Wilson's at all:

Wilson disease first attacks the liver, the central nervous system, or both.

A buildup of copper in the liver may cause ongoing liver disease. Rarely, acute liver failure occurs; most patients develop signs and symptoms that accompany chronic liver disease, including

* swelling of the liver or spleen
* jaundice, or yellowing of the skin and whites of the eyes
* fluid buildup in the legs or abdomen
* a tendency to bruise easily
* fatigue

A buildup of copper in the central nervous system may result in neurologic symptoms, including

* problems with speech, swallowing, or physical coordination
* tremors or uncontrolled movements
* muscle stiffness
* behavioral changes

Other signs and symptoms of Wilson disease include

* anemia
* low platelet or white blood cell count
* slower blood clotting, measured by a blood test
* high levels of amino acids, protein, uric acid, and carbohydrates in urine
* premature osteoporosis and arthritis

Kayser-Fleischer rings result from a buildup of copper in the eyes and are the most unique sign of Wilson disease. They appear in each eye as a rusty-brown ring around the edge of the iris and in the rim of the cornea. The iris is the colored part of the eye surrounding the pupil. The cornea is the transparent outer membrane that covers the eye.

[TryingtoGetWell]

Where is my head? I didn't think to ask - are you taking any nutritional supplements like multis that contain copper?

Other possibilities (don't know if any of these are likely or not) in this excerpt from a website I sometimes refer to (not giving link because it offers a service that may cause it to be considered a commercial link, though it doesn't relate to this general information):

Copper is a heavy metal that is toxic in its unbound form. Almost all of the copper in the body is bound to proteins, thereby reducing the concentration of unbound copper ions to almost zero. Most diets contain enough copper (2-5mg daily) to prevent a deficiency and not enough to cause toxicity. The World Health Organization (WHO) suggests that 10-12mg per day may be the upper safe limit for consumption.

Causes & Development

Copper toxicity is usually due to:

* excessive supplementation
* the increasingly common problem of low levels of zinc in the diet
* contaminated food and drinking water due to contact with metallic copper
* external exposures such as a copper IUD or accidental agricultural overspray
* elevated levels of estrogens.

Since copper and zinc compete with each other for absorption in the gut, copper toxicity has been the subject of greater concern in recent years. This is primarily due to reduced zinc in the diet and the switch from galvanized to copper water pipes. Acidic water such as rain water, left standing in copper plumbing pipes, can be a source of toxicity when consumed. In prolonged contact with copper cooking utensils, an acidic food or beverage can dissolve milligram quantities of copper, sufficient to cause acute toxicity symptoms such as self-limited nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. High copper levels, especially when associated with low zinc levels, have been linked to a variety of symptoms and conditions.

Diagnosis & Tests

The best means of testing for copper toxicity are 24-hour urine copper or serum ceruloplasmin level tests. Red blood cell copper levels may be a good test to measure increased copper levels as well. Hair levels of copper are not very helpful in detecting increased body copper because of external contamination. If contamination is ruled out, hair copper is suggestive of body state.

[Light]

Originally Posted by scotty

Wilsons is usually diagnosed in young children and probably would have shown signs prior to now.

FYI...Wilsons is a genetic disorder. Sarahs symptoms don't sound like Wilson's at all:

Wilson disease first attacks the liver, the central nervous system, or both.

Yes, but given that she has "really excessive levels of copper" it seems like a reasonable thing to ask her doctor. I saw a case in a medical documentary of a woman diagnosed in her thirties. Just did a quick search and see that although it's more common to be diagnosed as a child that people are also diagnosed in their early twenties. I agree though it's probably something else and there's definitely no reason to worry. Could be spurious test result... Zinc levels seem look a good thing to check too. Incidentally, I had a zinc deficiency that I corrected and got some symptomatic relief.

[Lucy]

Light, How was your zinc deficiency diagnosed and treated, and why were you tested for something like that?

[Light]

My neurologist ordered the test. I can't remember exactly why but it was related to a condition she was testing me for. I also had diffuse hair loss that was new for me. I take 50mg of zinc.

[Lucy]

Thanks for the reply - just curious! Never thought about zinc deficiency.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Light

Yes, but given that she has "really excessive levels of copper" it seems like a reasonable thing to ask her doctor. I saw a case in a medical documentary of a woman diagnosed in her thirties. Just did a quick search and see that although it's more common to be diagnosed as a child that people are also diagnosed in their early twenties. I agree though it's probably something else and there's definitely no reason to worry. Could be spurious test result... Zinc levels seem look a good thing to check too. Incidentally, I had a zinc deficiency that I corrected and got some symptomatic relief.

Oh, absolutely worth looking into, but I don't want Sarah freaking out about this, since this naturopath is the only one who has brought this up. I'm the eternal skeptic on this stuff.

There are cases diagnosed later(20's) but most have had symptoms for a long time that went unrecognized involving the liver.

[rain]

Originally Posted by scotty

I have NEVER seen a case of copper toxicity in 25 years of nursing, so I'm extremely skeptical of this.

Sara... this sounds strange to me as well! I would go to another doctor and get retested. I seriously doubt you have anything to be concerned about!

[SareBare]

Ahhh sorry guys i was at work.

ok so i had a blood test done with a very reliable lab that was within the hospital that i work in. The blood tests were ordered by my doctor including whole blood minerals for several minerals, which were all fine.
the doctor said it was pretty much one of the highest levels she had ever seen and she was not sure why.
she did the test because i have chronic exhaustion (possibly from paxil), poor blood sugar control (also probably possibly from paxil), an underactive thyroid which was diagnosed at age 24 and they werent sure why i got the hashimotos disease, i have bruises all the time and often not sure how i got them, plus many other generalised symptoms
all of which i have blamed on paxil for years. so the GP did so many tests and this was the only blood test abnormal.
i do not have the reference ranges infront of me but when i seen the tests which she showed me printed off my levels were high lighted and out of the ranges by far.
so the doctor said i needed to chelate the copper out of my system and we went through a list of possible causes like supplements, copper pipes chemicles i use etc and she was unsure.

so the doctor sent me to a naturopath who did a hair tissue mineral analysis which got sent off to a lab and came back with the same results of excessive copper. both the blood tests and the hair tests cost alot of money and are not routine tests done however my doctor said she does do whole blood minerals sometimes when she is not sure what is wrong with a patient.

so the naturopath said chelation involves a liver detox because build up of copper is in the liver and maybe because of long term SSRI use my liver is not as effective at clearing out chemicals. and that vitamin C IV is the best thing for chelation and binds to the copper to excrete it out of my system.,

They now want me to do a functional liver test which involves a 24 hour urine collection and taking paracetamol and aspirin at set times to see how my liver collects them.

i really dont know what to do. as for the wilsons, they said it is unlikely i have it because im in my late 20's and it ususally shows up younger. i really dont know. who knows.
i dont want all this copper floating around my body causing cancer and all these symptoms. i know alot of them can be contributed to my long term paxil use but i mean am i ment to worry.

im worried the IV vitamin C will make me sick to cause its a detox and apparently when it binds to it and brings it out of your body your symptoms are exacerbated and you feel really horrible. the doctor has already warned me. plus it costs 100 of dollars and i already am broke from spending all my money on my health and i had to quit my job because its to hard to work in emergency when my head is spinning.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

[scotty]

Sarah, do you have well water? The majority of cases that I'm finding have an external cause. Supplements, water contamination, low zinc levels.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/health...ets/copper.htm

[scotty]

Sarah, did they do liver enzymes? Somethings not right about this. And I've never heard of a regular MD sending someone to a naturopath for treatment. If this is truly a copper toxicity there are accepted treatments for it....Vitamin C isn't one that I've found on any reputable site. It is mentioned on some "natural" sites, but nothing with any science to back it up.

I would have this test done somewhere else. The other red flag is the reference to paxil being involved in this.

[pax80]

Originally Posted by SareBare

Ahhh sorry guys i was at work.

ok so i had a blood test done with a very reliable lab that was within the hospital that i work in. The blood tests were ordered by my doctor including whole blood minerals for several minerals, which were all fine.
the doctor said it was pretty much one of the highest levels she had ever seen and she was not sure why.
she did the test because i have chronic exhaustion (possibly from paxil), poor blood sugar control (also probably possibly from paxil), an underactive thyroid which was diagnosed at age 24 and they werent sure why i got the hashimotos disease, i have bruises all the time and often not sure how i got them, plus many other generalised symptoms
all of which i have blamed on paxil for years. so the GP did so many tests and this was the only blood test abnormal.
i do not have the reference ranges infront of me but when i seen the tests which she showed me printed off my levels were high lighted and out of the ranges by far.
so the doctor said i needed to chelate the copper out of my system and we went through a list of possible causes like supplements, copper pipes chemicles i use etc and she was unsure.

so the doctor sent me to a naturopath who did a hair tissue mineral analysis which got sent off to a lab and came back with the same results of excessive copper. both the blood tests and the hair tests cost alot of money and are not routine tests done however my doctor said she does do whole blood minerals sometimes when she is not sure what is wrong with a patient.

so the naturopath said chelation involves a liver detox because build up of copper is in the liver and maybe because of long term SSRI use my liver is not as effective at clearing out chemicals. and that vitamin C IV is the best thing for chelation and binds to the copper to excrete it out of my system.,

They now want me to do a functional liver test which involves a 24 hour urine collection and taking paracetamol and aspirin at set times to see how my liver collects them.

i really dont know what to do. as for the wilsons, they said it is unlikely i have it because im in my late 20's and it ususally shows up younger. i really dont know. who knows.
i dont want all this copper floating around my body causing cancer and all these symptoms. i know alot of them can be contributed to my long term paxil use but i mean am i ment to worry.

im worried the IV vitamin C will make me sick to cause its a detox and apparently when it binds to it and brings it out of your body your symptoms are exacerbated and you feel really horrible. the doctor has already warned me. plus it costs 100 of dollars and i already am broke from spending all my money on my health and i had to quit my job because its to hard to work in emergency when my head is spinning.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

my integrative doc told me to do those tests, i couldnt afford them at the time. I started taking milk thistle and now foods liver regenerator and my liver enzymes came down abruptly!

[scotty]

Originally Posted by pax80

my integrative doc told me to do those tests, i couldnt afford them at the time.

This is the red flag for me. If this is a "true" medical problem, then insurance is going to cover it's treatment. If you are asked to out out of pocket for anything that's a problem.

[eileen]

I saw an NP for my high blood pressure and he gave me a diet for blood types that anybody can get off the internet. He then got me to buy B vitamins, which I told him I couldn't take and he told me they would take down my pressure. I saw him twice and talked to somebody else who also paid him twice and left. As bad as conventional medication is, I will stay with it.
Eileen

[Songbird]

Did they also check your zinc levels?

[AussieGirl]

hi sarebare

Im like Scotty. After 25 years of nursing I have yet to see/treat/hear of anyone with copper toxicity and there includes working over 15 years in critical care.

I would NOT be taking the IV vitamin c.

DONT stress. I think you have to be very cautious and judicial with your use and investigations that are "natural" alternatives.

Just concentrate on your taper and not all these other issues would be my advice. Healthy balanced diet; regular exercise and lots of water .

Hugs Michaela xoxo

PS. Feel free to Pm me.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by AussieGirl

hi sarebare

Im like Scotty. After 25 years of nursing I have yet to see/treat/hear of anyone with copper toxicity and there includes working over 15 years in critical care.

Thanks for the additional back up. I've heard so many "alternative" treatments that end up treating nothing, but taking thousands of dollars that I lean toward skeptical on all of them. Maybe it's a good thing, LOL!

[Songbird]

The IV treatment would concern me, did they say why it had to be IV? If they are targetting the liver, why wouldn't oral vitamin C do the job?

[SareBare]

Ok maybe its not right then? i mean i have been working in emergency for 7 years and never seen anyone with it either. its just what my doctor told me.
she is a general practitioner but is really into natural health and believes that if you can do things naturally sometimes its better. which i agree with but im still unsure. i have only started going to see her in the last couple of months.

you can do oral vitamin C but they told me its not as effective and doesnt work as rapidly. because oral vitamin c is like milligrams and the IV vitamin c is like grams. she recommended 15 grams. sounds like alot. but then she said cancer patients have like 60 grams or something much stronger.

i know it all sounds very confusing which is why im confused. when i ask family or friends they have no idea what im talkinging about.
i dont have well water. but i did grow up on a farm that drank out of tanks and she also was questioning if that was the cause. and wanted to get the rest of my family tested to see if there is any correlation.
they dont really want to know about it. they are not into natural health and think its crap. thats there choice i guess.
also the blood tests for the copper and zinc (zinc levels were normal) etc were partially refunded my medicare in australia and so is the IV vitamin C but there are still alot of out of pocket costs.
the hair tissue mineral analysis which cost a few hundred dollars i had to pay because that is a naturopath thing done.
the doctor sent me to the naturopath to do the detox of my liver and stuff.
the doctor said there are other forms of chelation but she does not think that i would tolerate them as they are to harsh?
i have not been back to speak to her about it cause it freaked me out when she showed me the symtpoms list of long term copper damage and stuff and i was upset.
my liver function tests are normal. but they talk about some pathways being damaged due to SSRI use? its really all confusing and i probably need to do alot more research on it.
i guess no one else here has it cause no one has said they do. but the blood tests results showed the levels clearly and were highlighted by the lab and not within the reference ranges and that worried me.
i dont think i will have the IV vitamin C. especially not whilst im tapering cause im sure it will make me feel worse and i dont know how much evidence there is for it. but i might go speak to another GP or naturopath and see what they think.
maybe everyone has high levels of certain minerals due to all the toxins in todays society

[SareBare]

interesting stuff ive been reading about the correlation between depression and high copper levels. one site says up to 45% of people with major depression have high copper levels? i dunno just reading.
also says that oestrogen and copper are related and that women tend to have higher levels. and that the oral contraceptive pill can correlate with high copper. i wonder if this is the cause?