Adrenal fatigue recovery anyone?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Dymples83

Anyways I think I've said all that I wanted to say. I am half expecting a lot of back lash from this post but I'm at the point where I don't even care anymore.

How can you deny AF when there have been hundreds of people diagnosed with it and have made full recoveries using the right supplements and dietry changes? Not all these people are on AD or other prescribed meds so they couldn't be going through withdrawal. Also the book which is helping me get through this rough patch is written by a fully trained/qualified and experienced medical doctor so it's not just a naturopathic

No backlash, just some logical reasoning. If you feel that you have a problem with your adrenal glands, then go and have medical testing done, not accept information from a book from a doctor that you don't know, based on symptoms that may or may not have anything to do with it.

You can take whatever you want to take, we're just pointing out that the AF diagnosis is something we hear here all the time, that costs people a lot of money in supplements that ultimately make little change in how they feel.
It's up to you what you do with the information provided.

[palm]

Originally Posted by Dymples83

Just for the record, I hadn't changed anything before this "crash." I was still at the same dose. I haven't been using any detox plans, have no idea what a detox foot pad is, I have never touched anything alcoholic in my life (not kidding, I find it repulsive and smelly), I completely eliminated any stimulants such as tea/coffee etc (even decaffe) I haven't not been able to exercise hardly at all due to extreme exhaustion and when I do I get much much worse. I haven't been able to stabilise after a dose change at all in the last 9 months no matter how long in between.

Before my "crash" I was able to function, go shopping, loved to drive, I was able to effectively use CBT to talk my way out of any major attacks, at the moment I have buckley's in doing so. I'm now completely housebound and mostly bed ridden, I have no motivation what-so-ever. At first we thought that it was just the withdrawal effects so my doses were lowered however I have never been able to stablise no matter how long / short I wait between drops. Supplements have helped, I've been taking Vitamin B complex (same as always) magnesium complex and Vit C and I've seen slight improvements.

Some1 stated that I didn't have many of the supposed Adrenal Fatigue symptoms, If you'd read some of my previous posts on other threads you'd notice that I have already stated that what I'm going through (and have been for the past 9mths) has been the vast majority of known Adrenal Fatigue symptoms. I also apologise for not reading every single thread on this board as to where other similar posts have been made however I don't have the concentration span atm to read them all. This post alone has been typed over a period of a couple of hours. In fact I had to get my hubby to read all your replies as my brain isn't functioning enough to read throughly ( I was only able to skim read)

I was actually quite offended by some the these replys. How can you deny AF when there have been hundreds of people diagnosed with it and have made full recoveries using the right supplements and dietry changes? Not all these people are on AD or other prescribed meds so they couldn't be going through withdrawal. Also the book which is helping me get through this rough patch is written by a fully trained/qualified and experienced medical doctor so it's not just a naturopathic (if that's even a word sorry) opinion.

The thing is, my situation is being amplified by the withdrawal, I don't doubt this at all. It's a catch 22 really as the withdrawal is being amplified by my Adrenal Fatigue.

Anyways I think I've said all that I wanted to say. I am half expecting a lot of back lash from this post but I'm at the point where I don't even care anymore.




Btw Ray, what's wrong with being Australian :P We're awesome

Hi,

I am not sure why you're offended by people cautioning you not to get ripped off by professionals more interested in making money than your health.

By the way, I am not anti alternative health. But as one who has wasted way too much money on worthless supplements and going to alternative health folks who were a joke (they both used the "D" and "AF" words), I wish I had heeded the cautionary advice in these posts.

I also can't tell you how many times I think a supplement has helped only for it to fizzle out. That is because during withdrawal, our bodies are very sensitive to stuff.

As far as the most overused word in the health industry, I would vote for chemical imbalance which alternative health professionals are using as well as psychiatry. I find that unconscionable.

Palm

[ray34iyf]

Originally Posted by rangerNY

Is it just me, or are "toxin" and "detox" the two most overused and misused words in health and fitness?

I thought the SAME thing. It takes one to actually go through the process to understand it. Plain and simple.

[ray34iyf]

Btw Ray, what's wrong with being Australian :P We're awesome

I agree! I kind of want to move to Australia some day to be honest!

[rangerNY]

Originally Posted by ray34iyf

I thought the SAME thing. It takes one to actually go through the process to understand it. Plain and simple.

So there's no possibility that your improvement is simply a function of time and the distinct possibility that you are one of the majority of people that don't experience protracted withdrawal issues?

Contrary to the mindset on this board (which is totally understandable), severe discontinuation syndrome lasting months or more is actually not the norm. Tens of millions of people in the US alone have taken SSRIs and the cold reality is that while most experience some nastiness upon stopping, most do not experience it to a degree that drive them to a place like Paxil Progress.

So, which sounds more plausible? You're one of the very large group of people that improves after a few weeks, or that detox has fixed a problem that doesn't appear to be a real problem at all when you examine a large sample of people?

[rangerNY]

Originally Posted by Dymples83

I was actually quite offended by some the these replys. How can you deny AF when there have been hundreds of people diagnosed with it and have made full recoveries using the right supplements and dietry changes?

Put 1000 fully qualified medical doctors in a room and ask them about AF. Half will tell you you're being sold a bill of goods. Look at the other half. 80 percent of them will tell you that its possible, but still not well documented. The remaining 20 percent will tell you that its a real condition that you can treat.

Now put 1000 alternative and natural medicine practitioners in a room. 80 percent of them will tell you that AF is real and can be treated with a specific set of herbs, foods, etc. Are they wrong? Maybe not, but the fact that scientific medicine has failed us in many cases does not mean that alternative medicine is automatically correct.

You don't have to like it, but the fact is that AF is at best a controversial topic in medical circles. It appears to be an attempt at a common sense explanation for a set of varying symptoms that there might otherwise not be an explanation for. There's nothing wrong with that. That's part of how we make progress, but an evolving theory isn't fact and should not be interpreted as such.

I think Scotty is 100% correct in arguing against it here because the whole AF topic is ultimately worthless, or even harmful, for most on PP that run down that path desperate for some relief in whatever form and from whomever they can find it.

[LCrawford67]

Originally Posted by Dymples83

Also the book which is helping me get through this rough patch is written by a fully trained/qualified and experienced medical doctor so it's not just a naturopathic (if that's even a word sorry) opinion.


Anyways I think I've said all that I wanted to say. I am half expecting a lot of back lash from this post but I'm at the point where I don't even care anymore

Wait, have you had an actual diagnosis, from a doctor? Or, did you diagnose yourself from this book?

I'm not sure why you're expecting backlash or are offended. When you post something publicly, you'll get varying answers and they're not always going to be what you want to read. It's your life, your body - you do what you want with it. But, this board would be remiss not to state the obvious problems with this, especially having seen it not work so many times. And, even more so if this isn't a true diagnosis from a medical doctor.

[ray34iyf]

Originally Posted by rangerNY

So there's no possibility that your improvement is simply a function of time and the distinct possibility that you are one of the majority of people that don't experience protracted withdrawal issues?

Contrary to the mindset on this board (which is totally understandable), severe discontinuation syndrome lasting months or more is actually not the norm. Tens of millions of people in the US alone have taken SSRIs and the cold reality is that while most experience some nastiness upon stopping, most do not experience it to a degree that drive them to a place like Paxil Progress.

So, which sounds more plausible? You're one of the very large group of people that improves after a few weeks, or that detox has fixed a problem that doesn't appear to be a real problem at all when you examine a large sample of people?

Listen. I know my body. I know what I've gone through for 5 years now. I was on accutane for half a year... the side effects from that where far worse than what I experienced with the ssris. After making changes a month ago, things have dramatically improved. Issues that I've had for years even before drugs are clearing up. IE: ever since doing this, my skin is clearing up, I have had a stye on my right eye that has been there since I was 10. That has all of a sudden shrunk to barely noticeable. Hemmoroids.. Gone.

What I am saying is that it is something that IMO should definitely be looked into. Nothing wrong with doing your research and educating yourself. If you aren't going to think for yourself, someone will definitely do it for you. Take control back and empower yourself. I did... and I've had life changing revelations this past month.

[ray34iyf]

I think Scotty is 100% correct in arguing against it here because the whole AF topic is ultimately worthless, or even harmful, for most on PP that run down that path desperate for some relief in whatever form and from whomever they can find it.

Treating yourself kindly as if you are suffering from adrenal issues is not worthless, harmful, or desperate. This simply involves listening to your body, removing harmful things from your diet, meditating (relaxation), light exercise, and other common sense things. No one here has encouraged anyone to go out and buy $1000 worth of supplements.

[kathleen2]

Hi Dymples. I think most of us are skeptical not about adrenal exhaustion but about some methods used to "treat" it.

As a life-long panic sufferer whose panic was kicked into overdrive by paxil w/d, I know what it's like to deal with constant releases of adrenaline throughout the day. And unless we're in the shape of athletes--who release adrenaline on purpose often daily, and live for the rush, but have the bodies to handle it--yeah, it's exhausting. Ditto for cortisol. Having been there, I can only say what helped me: time, rest, gentle exercise, simple nutrition.
The existence of noradrenaline tells me that our bodies want to find stasis
and healing. Just don't let yourself fall prey to avoidance and agoraphobic tendencies, which will increase panic and leave you right back in the adrenaline merry-go-round. Ditto benzos.

BTW, is that a fox terrier in your avatar? Good for the soul, fox terriers.

[kathleen2]

Scotty: could you explain the difference between overtaxed adrenals and Adrenal Fatigue? I'm kind of baffled by taking a common symptom of anxiety and pathologizing it into a Syndrome.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by kathleen2

Scotty: could you explain the difference between overtaxed adrenals and Adrenal Fatigue? I'm kind of baffled by taking a common symptom of anxiety and pathologizing it into a Syndrome.

From what I understand they are one in the same. Below I've listed the "classic" symptoms reported and "attributed" to renal fatigue...they are very vague and could apply to pretty much anyone at any given time.

* Morning fatigue. You don’t really seem to wake up until 10 a.m., even if you’ve been awake since 7 a.m.
* Afternoon “low” (feelings of sleepiness or clouded thinking) from 2 to 4 p.m.
* A burst of energy at 6 p.m. when you finally feel better from your afternoon lull
* Sleepiness around 9p.m. to 10 p.m. However, you resist going to sleep
* A “second wind” at 11 p.m. that lasts until about 1 a.m., when you finally do go to sleep
* Cravings for foods high in salt and fats
* Chronic low blood pressure
* Sensitivity to cold and feeling chilled
* Increased PMS or menopausal symptoms
* Mild depression
* Mood swings
* Mental fog
* Memory problems
* Lack of energy and feeling rundown
* A decreased ability to handle stress
* A decreased ability to recover from illness
* Muscular weakness
* Increased food allergies
* Lightheadedness when getting up from a sitting or lying down position
* Decreased sex drive
* Frequent sighing
* Inability to handle foods high in potassium or carbohydrates unless they’re combined with fats and protein
* You crave sugar

[Lucy]

Scotty, what was the adrenal problem that Ryan was diagnosed with, which was obviously a legitimate problem that could be diagnosed and treated?
How is that problem different from adrenal fatigue? And was his problem caused by taking SSRIs?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Lucy

Scotty, what was the adrenal problem that Ryan was diagnosed with, which was obviously a legitimate problem that could be diagnosed and treated?
How is that problem different from adrenal fatigue? And was his problem caused by taking SSRIs?

Ryan has adrenal insufficiency. His symptoms were none of those listed above. He couldn't maintain his blood pressure. He took Florinef for 3 weeks(which stabilized things, but made him very sick) and now controls it with salt intake and compression stockings.
His doctor felt that paxil "may" have been contributory, but it never could be confirmed. Adrenal insufficiency is also believed to be autoimmune and with our family history of diabetes, it may be due to that. He was diagnosed with definitive labwork and a specialist consultation.
His symptoms are now very much under control, so his level of insufficiency is very low, thank goodness!

[kathleen2]

Thanks for taking the time to explain, Laurie. And I'm glad Ryan's ok!

For me, experiencing the adrenaline rushes of daily panic attacks was a big motivator in getting me to the gym, b/c I realized that what was wiping me out would be better tolerated if I was in better shape. It still amazes me that there are "adrenaline junkies" who seek out that high, b/c even now that I'm used to the treadmill I still don't like the adrenaline surge. Or the elevated heartrate, for that matter. But since I don't want to keel over from a heart attack at 50, off to the gym I go...

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by scotty

* Morning fatigue. You don’t really seem to wake up until 10 a.m., even if you’ve been awake since 7 a.m.
* Afternoon “low” (feelings of sleepiness or clouded thinking) from 2 to 4 p.m.
* A burst of energy at 6 p.m. when you finally feel better from your afternoon lull
* Sleepiness around 9p.m. to 10 p.m. However, you resist going to sleep
* A “second wind” at 11 p.m. that lasts until about 1 a.m., when you finally do go to sleep
* Cravings for foods high in salt and fats
* Chronic low blood pressure
* Sensitivity to cold and feeling chilled
* Increased PMS or menopausal symptoms
* Mild depression
* Mood swings
* Mental fog
* Memory problems
* Lack of energy and feeling rundown
* A decreased ability to handle stress
* A decreased ability to recover from illness
* Muscular weakness
* Increased food allergies
* Lightheadedness when getting up from a sitting or lying down position
* Decreased sex drive
* Frequent sighing
* Inability to handle foods high in potassium or carbohydrates unless they’re combined with fats and protein
* You crave sugar

Most of these symptoms could apply to SSRI w/d. I mean, I have a lot of these and I'm sure it is from w/d. Many are also common symptoms of other syndromes, such as hypoglycaemia, hyperventilation syndrome and so on. I don't think you can make a diagnosis of AF from this list. I am sure that SSRI use and w/d affects adrenal function, just as it can affect thyroid function and so on. Another thing to remember is that the adrenals are not really one gland, but actually four glands in one.

Even if it is AF, then the issue is how are you going to treat it. I think what people here are trying to say is that in w/d people can become very sensitive to all sorts of things, particularly supplements. They can have paradoxical effects or adverse reactions. So I would say be very careful, if you try anything start with a very small dose to see how your body reacts, and only try one thing at a time.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Songbird

Most of these symptoms could apply to SSRI w/d. I mean,

Most of these symptoms apply to being alive! Ask anyone, who has never taken an ssri, if they have these symptoms and the majority will say yes to a large number of them in any given time period.

[warbird]

Originally Posted by scotty

Most of these symptoms apply to being alive! Ask anyone, who has never taken an ssri, if they have these symptoms and the majority will say yes to a large number of them in any given time period.

amen...

[ray34iyf]

Originally Posted by warbird

amen...

Well, I'll attend to the gigantic elephant in the room. Considering the health of many people now a days, especially in the US, it would make sense that most everybody's adrenals are overly taxed.

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by ray34iyf

Well, I'll attend to the gigantic elephant in the room. Considering the health of many people now a days, especially in the US, it would make sense that most everybody's adrenals are overly taxed.

This may be true, however the adrenals don't work in isolation, they are part of a much bigger system. I think focussing purely on the adrenals is missing the bigger picture.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Songbird

This may be true, however the adrenals don't work in isolation, they are part of a much bigger system. I think focussing purely on the adrenals is missing the bigger picture.

Exactly! There's the immune system, hormones, and a host of other organs that respond to stress. To limit the thinking to one organ just isn't seeing the affect of stress on the body as a whole.

[ray34iyf]

Originally Posted by scotty

Exactly! There's the immune system, hormones, and a host of other organs that respond to stress. To limit the thinking to one organ just isn't seeing the affect of stress on the body as a whole.

You both couldn't have said it any better.

[eklektos]

Hi,

I thought I would clarify this thread. I am close to Dymples83 situation as I am her hubby.

Dymples83 used to be able to function in society. She was able to shop, go to work and look after her nanny kids. She had two weddings, her own and her best friends which had her running around preparing everything like a chook with it's head cut off.

After the weddings she came down ill. Most people do to a degree after they have been pushing themselves. Talk to any teacher and you will find they come down with some illness during school holidays. Dymples became ill with Parvovirus (medically tested and confirmed). Children normally get this virus and they are fine afterwards (a bit like chicken pox). However adults can have complications afterwards. In particular it places the body under stress. This in turn places the endocrine system under strain and unbalances adrenaline and histamine.

Because of the two weddings (running on adrenaline) and the subsequent parvo infection, her adrenals were strained. Dymples83 has called this "crashed" because things she was able to do she no longer is able to. Similar to hitting a brick wall. Based on my research this can take up to a year or so to recover from.

I am telling you this so that I can clarify some of the information that has been posted on this forum regarding this situation.

It seems like the people who are suffering longer term from taking these drugs really need to focus on their overall health also, as all of the prescription drug use takes a large toll on the entire system. Hormonal imbalances, compromised liver function, etc.. etc.. I'm realizing that the physical symptoms (morning malaise, very poor stress and exercise tolerance, lack of endurance, etc.. etc) are more than simple brain imbalance, which I had previously been focused on.

This is correct. You do need to focus on your entire health, from my research. This is in fact what Dymples83 is doing.

and a pen mark on the abdomen

This tests histamine response in the cells. High histamine levels (which Dymples83 does have - tested) can indicate adrenal's are not functioning correctly. The human body uses adrenaline to break down histamine. If the histamine levels are high it means the body is not breaking them down.

If you feel you have an adrenal problem, go get legitimate tests done.

There is a problem with traditional medical testing for adrenal function. You can only get an addison's check done. Anything not considered addisons is considered normal by most of the medical establishment. (so this means that testing by normal doctors will prove nothing.)

We are getting a cortisol saliva test done to determine if adrenal function is impaired at present. This however is not recognised by most doctors as they are trained to use PDR's instead of investigation.

What you're describing is classic withdrawal.

Yes, while some of the symptoms are classic withdrawal symptoms as well, not all of them are. When one goes from functioning, to not functioning (because the symptoms amplified and new ones appear) and a dosage change has not occurred to explain it, logically something in her body changed to cause the amplification.

Dymples83 was asking if others had experience with adrenal fatigue and the effects of such. This is due to her need for grounding her thought. A lot of what she has gone through, Dr's she has visited, etc. have told her that it is all in her mind. She is seeking clarification that these symptoms are part of what she is going through.

When someone is claiming that they can diagnose an adrenal problem based on a marking an abdomen with a pen and watching the color change, I will call it what it is, garbage.

While basing the diagnosis just on this one test is garbage, I agree (you need more to go on then this for a diagnosis). This statement and ones similar to it, with the mindset Dymples83 is in, took it to mean that fatigue of the adrenals is garbage. Thereby saying you thought her symptoms were all in her imagination.

You see Dymples83 knew what to expect with her medication drops. Each time they dropped she had the same symptoms. However for them to come on without a medication drop to cause them confused her. She lost her grounding and needed to find out what was causing her to feel the way she felt. Adrenal fatigue explained what happened because all of the puzzle pieces fitted.

It's ironic that with our big brains we seem to be the only species that doesn't get, on a fundamental level, how to care for ourselves.

Correct. This is the core of the issue. Learning to listen to what our bodies need. Dymples83 needed rest and a reduction of stress (which I would think is needed with any SSRI withdrawl). With the coming down from the highs of the weddings and having parvo, Dymples83 body coudl not cope with any more stress and therefore Dymples83 was not able to cope anymore.

We needed to get Dymples83 better. How are we doing this:
1. we eliminate stresses. This includes people who are draining, foods that she developed an intolerance to (allergy test confirmed).
2. we feed the body nutrients it needs to help restock and rebuild the endocrine system (including the adrenals).
3. she rests where possible.

Most of these symptoms apply to being alive! Ask anyone, who has never taken an ssri, if they have these symptoms and the majority will say yes to a large number of them in any given time period.

This is correct for a large number of people. This is due to our society being much more stressful then previously (say 100 years ago). We live a lot more fast paced and have multiple pressures on us to perform. So most people live on adrenaline, which taxes the body until it has trouble keeping up.

So to summarise, Dymples83 was looking for support in knowledge on what SSRI's do to the entire body (which very little studies exist on the overall effect of these drugs). Specifically around adrenal function. She took offence as the only explanation for the change in withdrawal symptoms seemed to be defined by people on this forum as quackery (while I understand you were trying to protect her from false treatments, this was not the reason for her enquiries). As a result Dymples83 had a crisis to try and identify the cause for the amplification of the symptoms as you had taken Adrenal function out of the equation for her.

Hence the response:

I was actually quite offended by some the these replys. How can you deny AF when there have been hundreds of people diagnosed with it and have made full recoveries using the right supplements and dietry changes? Not all these people are on AD or other prescribed meds so they couldn't be going through withdrawal. Also the book which is helping me get through this rough patch is written by a fully trained/qualified and experienced medical doctor so it's not just a naturopathic (if that's even a word sorry) opinion.

Regardless of medical science actually testing to prove it exists, anyone who pushes themselves past exhaustion to accomplish something knows that it takes time to fully recover from the exertion. This is adrenal fatigue. Now if I had the means I would commission the study into the long term effects of these drugs on the entire body systems. Alas I do not have the resources or funds to do so. Dymples83 hope was to find the next best thing, someone who had adrenal issues during tolerance / withdrawal to understand the effects. Hopefully some day they will be known.

[kathleen2]

This thread is largely a semantic argument, I think. Irregardless of what we call what we've all experienced, we all seem to agree that withdrawal is exhausting; panic is exhausting; the adrenaline response attendant to withdrawal and anxiety and stress in general is utterly exhausting; and what helps is time, rest, nutrition, and positive lifestyle changes. Ray may be investigating interesting alternatives, but at core he's all about a healthy lifestyle, too.

In terms of clarifying or defending one's stance--no need. If differing opinions increase anxiety, this should be taken as a step-away-from-the-computer moment.

[Dymples83]

Originally Posted by ray34iyf

I agree! I kind of want to move to Australia some day to be honest!

Awesome! It's not a great time atm though. We've just been flooded and now we have a gigantic Cyclone due to hit the east coast over the next couple of days. But hey, it's worth it

Originally Posted by kathleen2

BTW, is that a fox terrier in your avatar? Good for the soul, fox terriers.

Hi Kathleen,

He's a naughty but very lovable 8 month old Labradoodle