How do you know the medication pooped out?

[Bilo76]

This question is pounding my mind the last week. If nothing changes (i am doing CBT, breathing exercises, relaxation exercises, sport, dieet) and i still have this many problems in a month i might have to stop lexapro and get back to paxil. This is a risk since i dont know if my problems in the first place started because paxil pooped out on me after 13 years.

But i wonder how does one know that? Cause i see a lot of people posting on this forum saying "the med pooped out on me". But wasn't it just a fallback from your original problem? I mean; lets take me for example. After 13 years i suddenly got bad anxiety and panic attacks again. This could have so many reasons. Perhaps the 2 liter of aspartame containing light drinks i drink per day caused it. Or perhaps the stress at work gave me a setback. Or perhaps i just didn't faced my personal demons and therefore after a few years they came hunting me again.
I mean so many possibilities. Yet a lot of people say that paxil pooped out on them. So my questions are:

1.) How likely is it that paxil poops out on ya after several years? Is it a given fact? Anyone dare to make a percentage?
2.) How do you know if it poops out on you? Do ya get different symptoms with pooping out as suppose to the previous anxiety getting back?
3.) if an SSRI poops out on ya. Is that for life? I once heard that if it poops out and one stops with it;...in 6 months the mind is reset and the ssri will "work" again. Is this true or is a poop out for ever?


thanks in advance

[eileen]

Paxil, pooped on me! I had electric shock sensations, joint pain, one day started crying at work for no reason. There were probably more symptoms but I forget them.

Eileen

[Bilo76]

Originally Posted by eileen

Paxil, pooped on me! I had electric shock sensations, joint pain, one day started crying at work for no reason. There were probably more symptoms but I forget them.

Eileen

How did you know it pooped out on you and that it wasn't your original problem hunting you again? Taking paxil doesn't mean the problem will never come back.
All though i agree that electric shocks and zaps is different.
Thanks for your reply

Hopefully some ppl can answer my 3 questions

[Backtopaxil]

Originally Posted by Bilo76

How did you know it pooped out on you and that it wasn't your original problem hunting you again? Taking paxil doesn't mean the problem will never come back.
All though i agree that electric shocks and zaps is different.
Thanks for your reply

Hopefully some ppl can answer my 3 questions

I have the same question. Sometimes you hit tolerance after many years and are bumped up.
But am not sure if poop-out is when no other dosage works.

[eileen]

Originally Posted by Bilo76

How did you know it pooped out on you and that it wasn't your original problem hunting you again? Taking paxil doesn't mean the problem will never come back.
All though i agree that electric shocks and zaps is different.
Thanks for your reply

Hopefully some ppl can answer my 3 questions

I was given it because of a tragedy (which I don't want to talk about.)
I found PP and read the posts and knew that it had pooped!

Eileen

[julieannboo]

in 2009 i got a few viral infections and that triggered very bad health anxiety which i had never had before - just general anxiety.

i didn't know what it was what was happening to me.

it wasn't until last summer when i came on here and read about 'poop out' that it made sense that paxil had stopped working.

[texgirl]

Originally Posted by Bilo76

1.) How likely is it that paxil poops out on ya after several years? Is it a given fact? Anyone dare to make a percentage?

No way of knowing. The percentage of those at PP who are in poopout is large, but that's often what caused people to seek out the site in the first place. Much of the general SSRI-taking population seems to be able to take the meds for years without problems - although who knows how many of them really are in poopout, or switching, or taking multiple meds or self-medicating to deal with their original issues?

Originally Posted by Bilo76

2.) How do you know if it poops out on you? Do ya get different symptoms with pooping out as suppose to the previous anxiety getting back?

Poopout doesn't just mean that the drug stops working, but that you start feeling w/d side effects while still on a full dose. Increasing the dose usually only buys short-term relief; once it starts, it's generally a downhill slide. Of course if you go to your doctor, you'll be told it's your original condition returning, and the dose will be bumped up or you'll be switched to another drug. You may even receive a new diagnosis such as bipolar and be offered anti-psychotics, mood stabilizers, benzos, and/or sleep meds.

Originally Posted by Bilo76

3.) if an SSRI poops out on ya. Is that for life? I once heard that if it poops out and one stops with it;...in 6 months the mind is reset and the ssri will "work" again. Is this true or is a poop out for ever?

I've never heard of anybody buying him- or herself more than a small amount of time when reinstating after poopout starts. Many people are in the thick of w/d at six months off; their brains are still in chaos at that point, hardly "reset" to square one.

On the other hand, those in poopout often start to feel better once they start tapering.

[stellz]

thanks for posting this question, i was wondering the same thing.

I guess that might be what im going through and have been for over a year!!
The meds just dont have the same effect, i feel down, cry for no reason, have wicked insomnia even on sleeping tablets, random twitches and headaches. and all this without having changed anything!

My life is more stable than it was 2yrs ago, yet i feel worse. I use my DBT skills daily but a lot of the time, there just isnt a reason for feeling the way i do - like when im sitting with my partner watching a comedy and i start feeling anxious, my heart starts racing, sweating, just feeling on edge. What is that??

[Bilo76]

Originally Posted by texgirl

Poopout doesn't just mean that the drug stops working, but that you start feeling w/d side effects while still on a full dose. Increasing the dose usually only buys short-term relief; once it starts, it's generally a downhill slide. Of course if you go to your doctor, you'll be told it's your original condition returning, and the dose will be bumped up or you'll be switched to another drug. You may even receive a new diagnosis such as bipolar and be offered anti-psychotics, mood stabilizers, benzos, and/or sleep meds.

There has to be a clear way to recognize a poop-out?!?!
But if i understand you correctly,..then there is a difference in poop-out or increase in anxiety. So one knows the difference. If you're old anxiety comes back then it's not a poop-out like most ppl on this forum say. Its properly due to the fact that one hasn't learned enough (CBT) or hasn't sport or diet enough.
A poop-out will be accompanied with w/d effects like zaps, flu-like feeling etc etc. Do i understand this correctly?
Cause i have the feeling that I and a lot of people point to a poop-out once the anxiety creeps back in after several years of paxil. But it's more likely that's due to other reasons.




(this discussion is btw seperatly from the fact that i think a lot of people should taper and stop paxil)

Originally Posted by stellz

thanks for posting this question, i was wondering the same thing.

I guess that might be what im going through and have been for over a year!!
The meds just dont have the same effect, i feel down, cry for no reason, have wicked insomnia even on sleeping tablets, random twitches and headaches. and all this without having changed anything!

My life is more stable than it was 2yrs ago, yet i feel worse. I use my DBT skills daily but a lot of the time, there just isnt a reason for feeling the way i do - like when im sitting with my partner watching a comedy and i start feeling anxious, my heart starts racing, sweating, just feeling on edge. What is that??

This doesn't mean a poop-out if i follow my logic. The reason you feel worse can be cause of:
- You haven't learned a lesson that you should have learned (for instance 'being less selfdestructive' or 'deep down you think you are inadequate' etc etc)
- You have Chronic hyperventilation
- Due to stress in your life

i can think of 25 reasons.
Thats why i wondered about this poop-out

[texgirl]

Poopout has nothing to do with the amount of work you've done on your issues or the lessons you have or haven't learned while on the med. It's a physical reaction to the med, period. The symptoms may mimic those that brought you to it in the first place (anxiety, mood swings, etc.), but the cause is chemical.

This is not to say that the efforts you've put into dealing with your original issues won't help (you may be more likely, for example, not to attach too much weight to negative or scary feelings), but the symptoms are going to occur regardless, because of the chemicals in your brain shifting as the drug quits working.

[Bilo76]

Originally Posted by texgirl

Poopout has nothing to do with the amount of work you've done on your issues or the lessons you have or haven't learned while on the med. It's a physical reaction to the med, period. The symptoms may mimic those that brought you to it in the first place (anxiety, mood swings, etc.), but the cause is chemical.

This is not to say that the efforts you've put into dealing with your original issues won't help (you may be more likely, for example, not to attach too much weight to negative or scary feelings), but the symptoms are going to occur regardless, because of the chemicals in your brain shifting as the drug quits working.

I have a feeling i am not making my point clear . Must be my crappy english.
Lemme put it differently:

If you have a poopout, will you (besides the old anxiety comming back) also have w/d effects like Zapps, tinglings, flu-like feelings? Cause that would be a way to recognize a poopout, cause not every return of your anxiety will be a poopout.

[mapleleafgirl25]

there is a BIG difference between withdrawal anxiety and everyday anxiety. also you will know if you are having withdrawal, and when you poop out it can be those symptoms that you have mentioned above, everyone is different though, some people get the mental withdrawal stuff, some get the physical some get both.

[Bilo76]

Originally Posted by mapleleafgirl25

there is a BIG difference between withdrawal anxiety and everyday anxiety. also you will know if you are having withdrawal, and when you poop out it can be those symptoms that you have mentioned above, everyone is different though, some people get the mental withdrawal stuff, some get the physical some get both.

i think the difference between everyday anxiety and wd-anxiety is different for everyone. And still, if you are on paxil still;..how would you know how wd-anxiety is??
So basicly a poop-out is not recognizable?
Cause i see a lot of ppl that,...well lemme give a fictive example (and no its not me lol):

Woman, 40 years old. Started paxil when she was 26 for her anxiety and panic attacks. The reason she had those was cause she had problems as a kid, undiscovered issues with her parents and an overall unease with herself. She takes the paxil and this numbs her a bit. So she has less anxiety and she starts CBT. Not much, just once per week. Now she is 40 and she is still showing the same behavior. Saying yes to everybody, still at unease with herself and her parents still make her feel inadequate. This problem is getting bigger and bigger and its bursting to the surface. No 20 mg of paxil can help with that. So she starts to get anxiety and panic attacks again.
The doctor is an idiot and says 'paxil is not working anymore, lets put you on zoloft'. This woman has a ton of syndroms, WD and zoloft is not helping and she feels even worse then before.
Now she makes an account at this forum and blames the doctor for making her switch,..and she blames paxil for pooping out on her after 13 years.
WELL this is NOT a poopout. The old anxiety just came back because she didnt work on it.

Thats why i want (also for myself) a way to recognize a poopout

[eileen]

Bilo, You've been answered. Poop out is poop out and that's it. Having withdrawal sympotoms while you take the drug is not fun. I will tell you that withdrawal from Paxil was nothing like I ever had before or will have again. I wouldn't think of taking the crud at anytime.

[Kay2020]

My Doctor told me that Zoloft stopped working, my complaint was feeling weird depression (never had it before the drug or during the drug) and head zaps which BTW I had when starting Zoloft and was told that my body was getting used to the drug.

Now in wd from Lexapro I recognize that depression as the "morning" dread I feel when I wake up as the cortisol levels is so high and my dopamine levels are so low in withdrawal.

It feels exactly what I felt when the Zoloft was said to stop working. Besides the head zaps which I only felt when tapering too fast, since doing the 10 percent tapers I have no zaps anymore.

[Backtopaxil]

I really dont get this poop out thing.

I understand that after a few years you body hits tolerance and a new higher dosage is required.

If the dosage increase works OK and you can continue then it was a matter of tolerance.

If the dosage increase works but fails then after say 6 months then Paxil has pooped out.

To me a clear example of poop out is when you reach 60 mg and it does not work anymore. That is it.

thoughts?

[Bilo76]

Originally Posted by eileen

Bilo, You've been answered. Poop out is poop out and that's it. Having withdrawal sympotoms while you take the drug is not fun. I will tell you that withdrawal from Paxil was nothing like I ever had before or will have again. I wouldn't think of taking the crud at anytime.

Ehh no i have not been answered. "Poop out is poop out and thats it"...well thank you for that wizdom. And a car is a car and a duck is a duck.

My question 'how to differentiate poopout from normal anxiety' still stands. Only texgirl and Kay have mentioned something about zaps and other wd-effects. That would be a difference from "normal" anxiety. So that could be the answer to my question.

Anyway, my question isnt that weird is it? Everybody here that has anxiety again says its because a poopout. And if i ask how do you know it was a poop out then the answer is '"Poop out is poop out and thats it" LOL.

For me this is important cause if my sudden debut of anxiety after 13 years of paxil was caused by a poopout;..then i dont need to get back to paxil cause it wont do me any good. If its because i drink gallions of aspartame, breathed like an idiot, felt insecure the whole time and still avoided certain behaviour;....well then its a different story

[rangerNY]

Try this. You have anxiety and panic attacks. You're given Paxil to mask them. It works. After some time, you begin to experience what is most often termed breakthrough anxiety or even panic. You're still taking the Paxil, but you're suddenly experiencing anxiety again. Its breaking through the shield previously provided by Paxil. This is often the first sign of pending poop-out.

This IS your original issue resurfacing because it never went away in the first place. The medication just dampened your reaction to it. Does that make sense?

At this point, the meds are beginning to poop out on you, but its not poop out that causes the anxiety for you. As it gets more severe and you begin to suffer withdrawal while still taking the meds, the anxiety might be magnified by withdrawal, but its still your original anxiety.

Its different for people that never had anxiety issues before Paxil. For those people the anxiety they feel when they hit poop out and withdrawal is almost entirely chemical in nature.

Now, if you've been working on your original issues, odds are you'll be better prepared to deal with the anxiety and panic when they return, but since its all about real life exposure and practice, CBT and related therapies while "numbed" by medication are not completely effective. This is why even though you've been working on it, you still feel the return of anxiety. You'll have to actually work through it when it returns.

[Bilo76]

Thanks Ranger!
I understand and agree. Except 1 thing:

Originally Posted by rangerNY

You're still taking the Paxil, but you're suddenly experiencing anxiety again. Its breaking through the shield previously provided by Paxil. This is often the first sign of pending poop-out.

I agree it's breaking through the shield provided by paxil. This was my understanding also. But i dont understand how you know its the first sign of pending poop-out? How do you know it's not because you have neglected you anxiety and CBT and diet? On what theory/experience/logica do you base the conclusion this is first step in poopout? (i do NOT wanna seem harsh and deliberately doubt you LOL,..i am just curious)

[rangerNY]

Originally Posted by Bilo76

How do you know it's not because you have neglected you anxiety and CBT and diet? On what theory/experience/logica do you base the conclusion this is first step in poopout?

Sadly, the vast majority of people simply take Paxil without any corresponding therapy, yet they also experience a complete dampening of anxiety and panic. Nasty side effects and dependence issues aside, you can't really argue against the effectiveness of drugs like Paxil. They do wipe out the anxiety in the majority of cases.

Ask yourself what your own experience was. When you first started the meds, did your anxiety lessen within a few weeks? If so, then it was the medication, not the therapy, that really knocked it down. Odds are you could have been threatened at gunpoint and not felt anxious. That's how you know that the return of anxiety is primarily due to the decreased effectiveness of the meds over time.

In addition, CBT is not designed to prevent anxiety and panic. That's only a by-product that comes with time and practice. So, it really isn't the therapy that's primarily responsible for the lack of anxiety. Its the meds for the most part.

This is why the use of medication alongside therapies like CBT and DBT is so often avoided by the dyed-in-the-wool behaviorists. If you can't swim, watching swimming videos and reading books about swimming does you little good if you've emptied the pool and filled it with concrete.

[Bilo76]

Thanks Ranger,

That last reply made sense and answered my question

I am doubting if i agree with you however. I dont know. Your logic ("That's how you know that the return of anxiety is primarily due to the decreased effectiveness of the meds over time") implies the assumption that anxiety and panic has never left someone over the years, but was always lying behind the paxil fog. I doubt that. Even without CBT, a person gains wizdom and experience. Unless you have a personality disorder, i believe that anxiety comes and goes over ones life.
Like i previously said, i think diet, sport, stress, live habits, personal growth, wrong breathing etc etc can also be cause of anxiety returning instead of pointing to a poopout.

But i am not sure.

Anyways you have answered my question and gave me food to think. Thanks

[rangerNY]

Originally Posted by Bilo76

Even without CBT, a person gains wizdom and experience. Unless you have a personality disorder, i believe that anxiety comes and goes over ones life.

That's a very healthy outlook! Zero anxiety really only happens naturally when we're dead.

[Bilo76]

One last question popped in my head while doing my daily evening walk ;

If one SSRI poops out,..is it likely (conform experience in this forum) that a second SSRI will also poop out?

[Backtopaxil]

Originally Posted by rangerNY

Sadly, the vast majority of people simply take Paxil without any corresponding therapy, yet they also experience a complete dampening of anxiety and panic. Nasty side effects and dependence issues aside, you can't really argue against the effectiveness of drugs like Paxil. They do wipe out the anxiety in the majority of cases.

Ask yourself what your own experience was. When you first started the meds, did your anxiety lessen within a few weeks? If so, then it was the medication, not the therapy, that really knocked it down. Odds are you could have been threatened at gunpoint and not felt anxious. That's how you know that the return of anxiety is primarily due to the decreased effectiveness of the meds over time.

In addition, CBT is not designed to prevent anxiety and panic. That's only a by-product that comes with time and practice. So, it really isn't the therapy that's primarily responsible for the lack of anxiety. Its the meds for the most part.

This is why the use of medication alongside therapies like CBT and DBT is so often avoided by the dyed-in-the-wool behaviorists. If you can't swim, watching swimming videos and reading books about swimming does you little good if you've emptied the pool and filled it with concrete.

Wow I am lost here.

When I started therapy ( I guess it was talk therapy), I also started Paxil like a few weeks later. Was reassured that Paxil will do the work. And it did for 8 1/2 years without an issue.

Now I have resinstated and while mood is actually good, some stress/anxiety remains and I hope clears soon. No i dont have panic attacks or anything like that but I feel tense and that can lead to some muscle stiffness.

But I guess I will have to wait until I taper to actually enroll in CBT otherwise I will waste my time. Am I correct?

[mapleleafgirl25]

I was put on paxil for ANXIETY, i have been on and off paxil for the last 8 years..I HAVE NEVER HAD ANXIETY AT ALL ON PAXIL, EVEN NOW TAPERING AT THIS DOSE I DO NOT HAVE IT, that means it is working still..I HAVE ONLY HAD IT DURING WITHDRAWAL and it was NOTHING like the once and a while anxiety i had before paxil!

So for me i have never POOPED OUT ON PAXIL..it has still always worked for me thus far!